BrianH wrote in message
...

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few
minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it
coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere
moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they
wouldn't be

Getting a bit heated, this discussion, so I've snipped a lot of
threats and hard words!

About sudden winds.

I've lived and sailed Greek waters since 1978, and there's no
doubt that occasionally very big winds arrive without any
warning. No cloud change visible, no visibility change visible,
nothing. But it's rare.

The most common 'big fright' is the passage of a cold front, when
there will be a lot of cloud around, and if you're downwind of an
island giving shelter from the regular wind, you won't see the
roll cloud signalling the approach of the front. Suddenly the
wind shifts from the regular N segment to a southerly segment -
and that southerly wind can hit 50kts at onset then slowly drop
to 30kts. Waves will build from flat to 1metre within 15 minutes,
2 metres after about 30 minutes. By then the wind has usually
passed. Twice I've seen yachts anchored bows to a quay minced to
pieces in such circumstances, once in Levkas town, once in Tolon.

The Adriatic bora (especially in April and May) is the next most
common 'big fright'. 40kts from a consistent blue sky within a
few minutes.

After that you should consider the passing of a big cumulus. In
unstable conditions you can have lots of these, none a big
threat. Then along comes a twister. Oops! They'll flatten any
boat, drag any anchor, but they're gone in a minute and are
rarely accompanied by any swell.

Blue sky 'big frights' from the south in the Aegean are usually p
receded by a build up of a southerly swell in flat water. They're
easily the worst, but don't usually go above 30kts in summer.

There's another, interesting, blue sky fright, but it doesn't
involve a change in wind direction. It affects yachts in the lee
of some islands. When the regular meltemi goes above a certain
strength, the wind seems to accelerate down the mountain side and
suddenly there's no wind shelter. Vassiliki shows this effect
beautifully, and several Aegean islands show the effect to
dangerous levels. Calm to 50 kts offshore in seconds. Yuk.

I don't think any courses will prepare people to predict any of
these situations, though experience will raise suspicions if a
swell picks up without wind to cause it. They're all very
frightening when you first experience them, and judgement tends
to be suspended for a while. As to meeting them from a small open
boat . . .

I'm quite prepared to believe that Steve may have experienced a
weather change that frightened him immensely. I suspect the swell
may have been building up beforehand, but perhaps it's
significance hadn't registered. I think also the swell height was
exaggerated - it just doesn't build up from nothing to more than
2 metres within less than half an hour - unless you've popped
around a sheltering headland by mistake.

So, though this discussion is interesting, I think it's a red
herring concerning licencing.

JimB

You had the wrong boat in the wrong circumstances.

Chances are that an an 8-10hp engine in a displacement hull would have quite
happily powered you out of those circumstances.

The problem you faced was because you were in a hull designed to be
'exciting' for holidaymakers, so it was lightly constructed, designed to
plane on the waves, and (from the point of view of seaworthines) loaded with
an overlarge outboard motor weighing down the stern. All great fun for
****ing about in the calm, but useless for real sea use.

40hp or whatever is irrelevant for seaworthiness, what counts is grip in the
water (depth/keel), freeboard
and balance.

I've regularly driven an 18 ft displacement boat, quite happily and safely,
through 3m waves off a lee shore with a 6hp engine.

I grew up in east anglia, my favourite area as a kid was Southwold harbour,
if you want to play in small boats take a look at the hulls used by
fishermen. Understand what they learnt.

You did well with the boat that you had, you were in a dangerous situation
and you survived; we all scare the **** out of ourselves at some point.

Training + experience provides the anchor points for the next trial.

nick
"Steve" wrote in message
...
Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you know your colregs and basic
navigation, you'll get through the exam without difficulty. If you
don't, I don't much want you on the water in a powerful boat, with or
without a certificate.

Define "powerful".

More than four horsepower.

If you don't want to get one, stick to hiring low-powered boats.

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous! My 26 foot ocean capable boat has 8
horsepower, and is grossly overpowered - half throttle is ten knots
and anything over half throttle she just squats. Four would be
adequate in all conditions, and with a good inboard installation and a
good prop two horsepower could probably drive her at hull speed. My
father's similar 22 foot boat forty years ago had two horsepower and
it was never not powerful enough.

Perhaps the Greeks rebadge their outboards then g, and I was
conned into paying for a 25hp when in fact it was a 0.25hp. lol.

Seriously though, perhaps the engine's torque figures make a
difference, or the propeller size, etc? These things are quite
slow, but more importantly they struggle to make *any* progress
against undercurrents.

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

That's not quite what I said, I'll explain further.
www.skiathosinfo.com/islandmap.htm
I hired a 40hp boat from a place in the bay to the South called
"Vasillias" which is indicated on the map. The island had winds
coming in from the North so I was advised to remain within two
points at either side, from Krasa to the west and the Is Arkos to
the east.

Had a great day untill about 4.00pm (boat due back at 5.00pm) at
which time we were just off Kalimaki and the wind changed
direction. Suddenly (and while drifting peacefully in calm
waters), we found ourselves in a huge swell and facing wind
coming in from the south-east. I set off to head back around the
small Kalamaki peninsula with my wife looking very worried and
our child (thinking she was on a playground ride) giggling. *I*
knew we were in serious danger.

The current and swell were pushing the boat back towards the
rocks, while use of any real throttle resulted in almost flipping
the boat while climbing the swell of water. The trouble was, that
only full throttle would make *any* progress against the wind and
current, but that would also flip the boat. Just getting the hang
of things and phut.. phut.. fuel empty!

I had to keep everyone calm, move them around to balance the tiny
boat, refill the tank from the spare fuel can without spilling it
everywhere, put everything back under the seat, start the engine
quickly without flooding it and make progress against an (approx
15-20ft) ever-increasing swell without flipping the boat in sheer
panic.

Once re-started, I managed to keep my family as forward as
possible and alternate between backing off throttle but
maintaining some speed up the swell and then accelerating down
the other side. Eventually I brought us 'behind' the shelter
offered by the two small islands (Mikri Tsougria and Megati
Tsougria) at which point the sea was more or less dead calm
again.

That was a shock, unexpected, with no warning and we lived to
tell the tale due to "common sense". Seriously, could I have done
any better while holding a certificate?

You had the wrong boat in the wrong circumstances.

Chances are that an an 8-10hp engine in a displacement hull would have quite
happily powered you out of those circumstances.

The problem you faced was because you were in a hull designed to be
'exciting' for holidaymakers, so it was lightly constructed, designed to
plane on the waves, and (from the point of view of seaworthines) loaded with
an overlarge outboard motor weighing down the stern. All great fun for
****ing about in the calm, but useless for real sea use.

40hp or whatever is irrelevant for seaworthiness, what counts is grip in the
water (depth/keel), freeboard
and balance.

I've regularly driven an 18 ft displacement boat, quite happily and safely,
through 3m waves off a lee shore with a 6hp engine.

I grew up in east anglia, my favourite area as a kid was Southwold harbour,
if you want to play in small boats take a look at the hulls used by
fishermen. Understand what they learnt.

You did well with the boat that you had, you were in a dangerous situation
and you survived; we all scare the **** out of ourselves at some point.

Training + experience provides the anchor points for the next trial.

nick
"Steve" wrote in message
...
Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you know your colregs and basic
navigation, you'll get through the exam without difficulty. If you
don't, I don't much want you on the water in a powerful boat, with or
without a certificate.

Define "powerful".

More than four horsepower.

If you don't want to get one, stick to hiring low-powered boats.

25hp on open seas is not "low powered", it's dismall and probably
unsafe.

Don't be ****ing ridiculous! My 26 foot ocean capable boat has 8
horsepower, and is grossly overpowered - half throttle is ten knots
and anything over half throttle she just squats. Four would be
adequate in all conditions, and with a good inboard installation and a
good prop two horsepower could probably drive her at hull speed. My
father's similar 22 foot boat forty years ago had two horsepower and
it was never not powerful enough.

Perhaps the Greeks rebadge their outboards then g, and I was
conned into paying for a 25hp when in fact it was a 0.25hp. lol.

Seriously though, perhaps the engine's torque figures make a
difference, or the propeller size, etc? These things are quite
slow, but more importantly they struggle to make *any* progress
against undercurrents.

If you think you can't go into open water with less than 25 horse
power, you aren't safe to go into open water at all.

That's not quite what I said, I'll explain further.
www.skiathosinfo.com/islandmap.htm
I hired a 40hp boat from a place in the bay to the South called
"Vasillias" which is indicated on the map. The island had winds
coming in from the North so I was advised to remain within two
points at either side, from Krasa to the west and the Is Arkos to
the east.

Had a great day untill about 4.00pm (boat due back at 5.00pm) at
which time we were just off Kalimaki and the wind changed
direction. Suddenly (and while drifting peacefully in calm
waters), we found ourselves in a huge swell and facing wind
coming in from the south-east. I set off to head back around the
small Kalamaki peninsula with my wife looking very worried and
our child (thinking she was on a playground ride) giggling. *I*
knew we were in serious danger.

The current and swell were pushing the boat back towards the
rocks, while use of any real throttle resulted in almost flipping
the boat while climbing the swell of water. The trouble was, that
only full throttle would make *any* progress against the wind and
current, but that would also flip the boat. Just getting the hang
of things and phut.. phut.. fuel empty!

I had to keep everyone calm, move them around to balance the tiny
boat, refill the tank from the spare fuel can without spilling it
everywhere, put everything back under the seat, start the engine
quickly without flooding it and make progress against an (approx
15-20ft) ever-increasing swell without flipping the boat in sheer
panic.

Once re-started, I managed to keep my family as forward as
possible and alternate between backing off throttle but
maintaining some speed up the swell and then accelerating down
the other side. Eventually I brought us 'behind' the shelter
offered by the two small islands (Mikri Tsougria and Megati
Tsougria) at which point the sea was more or less dead calm
again.

That was a shock, unexpected, with no warning and we lived to
tell the tale due to "common sense". Seriously, could I have done
any better while holding a certificate?

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message

Anyway, you might be happy to know that I will take much of this
on board (pardon the pun), and there are things I hadn't
considered which means I shall now seek out proper advice before
I venture out again. Your comments have not been in vain, even if
mine have.

No, your comments were not in vain - I'm impressed how you have stuck to
this thread and recovered a lot of your integrity from a shaky start. If you
persist with your nautical pursuits I am sure you will make a good seaman.

You certainly must be eligible for a prize in the marathon thread contest
:-)

Regards,

BrianH.

"Steve" wrote in message
...
"BrianH" , wrote:

"Steve" wrote in message

Anyway, you might be happy to know that I will take much of this
on board (pardon the pun), and there are things I hadn't
considered which means I shall now seek out proper advice before
I venture out again. Your comments have not been in vain, even if
mine have.

No, your comments were not in vain - I'm impressed how you have stuck to
this thread and recovered a lot of your integrity from a shaky start. If you
persist with your nautical pursuits I am sure you will make a good seaman.

You certainly must be eligible for a prize in the marathon thread contest
:-)

Regards,

BrianH.

Steve wrote in message
...

So, though this discussion is interesting, I think it's a red
herring concerning licencing.

It's not, I promise and assure you it is not.

Sorry, I wasn't clear here.

I meant that the discussion about sudden winds is a red herring
to the licensing issue. My point being that skill in dealing with
extreme or rare events is the gift of experience, not licensing.

Licensing is designed to reduce the most common mishaps and
mis-use of resources.

JimB, Yacht Rapaz
Sadly, for sale:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm

Steve wrote in message
...

So, though this discussion is interesting, I think it's a red
herring concerning licencing.

It's not, I promise and assure you it is not.

Sorry, I wasn't clear here.

I meant that the discussion about sudden winds is a red herring
to the licensing issue. My point being that skill in dealing with
extreme or rare events is the gift of experience, not licensing.

Licensing is designed to reduce the most common mishaps and
mis-use of resources.

JimB, Yacht Rapaz
Sadly, for sale:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm

Steve Firth wrote in message
.. .

We get used, in sailing boats, to tackling seas and winds that
make life
very dangerous indeed for powerboaters.

Well, having stood a watch or two on a lifeboat, I'm not sure I'd
go along with that statement

But I have plucked it out of context!

JimB, Yacht Rapaz
Sadly for sale:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
--

Steve Firth wrote in message
.. .

We get used, in sailing boats, to tackling seas and winds that
make life
very dangerous indeed for powerboaters.

Well, having stood a watch or two on a lifeboat, I'm not sure I'd
go along with that statement

But I have plucked it out of context!

JimB, Yacht Rapaz
Sadly for sale:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jim.bae...cification.htm
--

Steve wrote:
It looks like I'll be looking for and hopefully attending a reasonably
priced course, rather than trying to blag a 40hp again or putting up
with a 25hp.


Steve. Might I suggest that you consider a Dayskipper Power Shorebased
course, plus the practical. With it you will automatically get an ICC, but
it goes into great depth (pardon the punn) on passage planning, weather
conditions, Safety of Life at Sea, and emergency actions.

If you look around (I've found local colleges a good cheap source) you can
get a Dayskipper Classroom for around £100, The practical is generally
morem but gets you 5 days (2 weekends) away on the water, so it's really a
jollyday with a certificate.

This route requires more outlay (both financially and in terms of
commitment) from the student, however I liken it to doing a motorcycle CBT
compared to a Full License. I wouldn't have dreamt of jumping on my
1200cc bike having gained my riding experience on a 125 scooter, by the
same token, I wasn't prepared to take out a 36' Benneteau, with only 12
months inshore Wayfarer sailing. (Though a 'wayfarer' adventure is still an
adventure!!!)

Personally, having done the dayskip, and compared it to the 'silly bus' of
the powerboat ICC (I see it weekly at my local dinghy club), I can honestly
say I would actively support a raising of the required standard to this.
(probably make a lot of enemies in the proccess though!)

I'm not one to patronise, (believe me, I like to cut corners.) but I feel a
lot more equipped to deal with situations that may arrise, and a lot more
cautious and aware of the possible hazards, both in weather and surface
conditions and technically in a boat.

Even if you just want to do the ICC practical, a shorebased dayskipper would
in my opinion, still be highly recommended!

Probably not what you wanted to here, but only an opinion!

--
The keelworm sticketh, the sander scrapeth away!
www.love2sail.co.uk - uk coastal sailing forums
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