On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 12:37:43 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 3, 11:06 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:38:18 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se
(though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster).

That invariably results in a lot of green water over the decks in my
experience, and can definitely pitch pole smaller boats as the bow
digs in and stops.

Invariably? You need a new skipper! As a former racer of a
trapeze dingy I know that full stop that launches the crew around the
forestay. In the conditions where that happens the winners get to the
bottom mark without crashing even though they will overtake a bunch of
waves on the way... Of course, the dingy racer is moving very fast
over relatively slow, small waves with an unreasonable press of sail
barely countered by the movable ballast of the crew perched
precariously on the back corner of the boat. Racers live to be on the
edge of control. I don't want to generalize too much, but the
situation offshore in an ocean capable cruising yacht is likely to be
very different. Even in a yacht fast enough to be overtaking large
waves the prudent cruiser will reduce sail to keep the boat within its
controllable speeds and will remove sails that press the bow down and
sails that increase the tendency to broach. In many conditions these
tactics will allow fast boats to overtake waves in comfort and
control.

-- Tom.

A lot depends on the shape/steepness of the waves, type of boat,
racing vs cruising, etc. When racing offshore we would almost never
shorten sail as long as the boat was more or less under control.
Cruising is another thing altogether. On a very fast, seaworthy 50
footer with high freeboard, we used to stuff the bow into the backside
of waves all the time, typically bringing green water back past the
mast. No big deal in normal, mildly gnarly conditions.

On Jan 4, 8:08 am, wrote:
Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a
sea anchor or even heaving to. ...

I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to
provides the smoothest motion...

Some boats are going to roll and slew about when running off. That
should be controllable to some extent by over-trimming the storm jib
and heading up onto a broad reach, but YMMV. At some point, though,
heaving to will not be a viable option and running off is going to be
less stressful than anchoring. On boats that don't roll so much
running off will likely be more comfortable than heaving to right from
the git go as long as you keep enough sail up and trimmed.

... the series drogue is mostly hanging down. As the boat picks
up speed, more of them stream and drag increases. Boat speed
increases, but not as sharply.

Yes, but generally the series drogue is sized to be very draggy
compared to other drogues and it doesn't have the swift transition
from modest drag to high drag that the variable drag drogues have.

... What do you think of the task of switching from one to other if the
sea state gets bad enough to warrant? ...

I do not think it is practical to switch in genuinely dangerous
weather.

And which would you deploy
first, which would be the "ultimate"?...

It depends. It is no big deal to set or retrieve the drogue and if
conditions were right and I was headed downwind anyway I wouldn't
hesitate to set it. The sea anchor is pretty much a "hail Mary" for
me for use when there is no other escape (eg. on the dangerous side of
a storm or lee shore when beating becomes impossible). I think the
sea anchor will keep you from capsizing in worse conditions than the
drogue but that may be cold comfort if the superstructure has been
swept away and you are sinking...

-- Tom.

On Jan 4, 11:09 am, Wayne.B wrote:
... A lot depends on the shape/steepness of the waves, type of boat,
racing vs cruising, etc. ...

Amen.

... On a very fast, seaworthy 50
footer with high freeboard, we used to stuff the bow into the backside
of waves all the time, typically bringing green water back past the
mast. No big deal in normal, mildly gnarly conditions.

Sure, but you were out having fun and pressing the boat a bit, weren't
you? I suspect that If you'd dropped the main and gone to a chicken
kite, removed some of the junk from the bows, and trimmed things so
that the driver could steer around the bigger holes you would have
been a lot drier but maybe still have been overtaking those waves...

-- Tom.

dougking wrote:
I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to
provides the smoothest motion...

" wrote:
Some boats are going to roll and slew about when running off. That
should be controllable to some extent by over-trimming the storm jib
and heading up onto a broad reach, but YMMV. At some point, though,
heaving to will not be a viable option and running off is going to be
less stressful than anchoring. On boats that don't roll so much
running off will likely be more comfortable than heaving to right from
the git go as long as you keep enough sail up and trimmed.


And as the sea condition worsens, at some point, the boat will not
stand up to enough sail to make it heave-to; and then again at some
point the waves are going to be violent enough to toss the boat around
unless she's held in place by more than her weight & underbody. The
key is to recognize that conditions are going to ge worse beyond this
point and prepare accordingly...

Wiht regards to storm jibs, I've been taught that you set them trimmed
tight & flat amidships; not like you would a normal jib. That way, any
time the boat slews away from DDW the sail acts like a wind wave to
turn her nose back, and doesn't yank the rig off the deck when
luffing / slatting. Never tried it.... OTOH I have tried t set a
trysail in conditions where it was needed, and found it impossible to
do any work on deck, and we towed ropes as drogues to run DDW
instead.


... What do you think of the task of switching from one to other if the
sea state gets bad enough to warrant? ...

I do not think it is practical to switch in genuinely dangerous
weather.


Yep.
The best defense against really bad stuff is to be elsewhere.
IMHO most people don't start thinking about reefing soon enough; and
then persversely start wanting to switch to "storm tactics" like
trysails & drogues when they should be just sailing the boat.



And which would you deploy
first, which would be the "ultimate"?...

It depends. It is no big deal to set or retrieve the drogue and if
conditions were right and I was headed downwind anyway I wouldn't
hesitate to set it. The sea anchor is pretty much a "hail Mary" for
me for use when there is no other escape (eg. on the dangerous side of
a storm or lee shore when beating becomes impossible). I think the
sea anchor will keep you from capsizing in worse conditions than the
drogue but that may be cold comfort if the superstructure has been
swept away and you are sinking...


OK thanks.




Wayne.B wrote:
... A lot depends on the shape/steepness of the waves, type of boat,
racing vs cruising, etc. ...

" wrote:
Amen.


And current plays a big part in this- that's one reason why the Irish
Sea and the Tasman Strait have such bad reps.


... On a very fast, seaworthy 50
footer with high freeboard, we used to stuff the bow into the backside
of waves all the time, typically bringing green water back past the
mast. No big deal in normal, mildly gnarly conditions.

Sure, but you were out having fun and pressing the boat a bit, weren't
you? I suspect that If you'd dropped the main and gone to a chicken
kite, removed some of the junk from the bows, and trimmed things so
that the driver could steer around the bigger holes you would have
been a lot drier but maybe still have been overtaking those waves...


IMHO a good driver should be able to avoid "stuffing" the bow; it may
take a bit of help from additional eyes spotting the crests. A chicken
chute is a lot of fun but I've gotten fond of asymmetrics.

DSK

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 07:32:21 -0800 (PST), wrote:

IMHO a good driver should be able to avoid "stuffing" the bow; it may
take a bit of help from additional eyes spotting the crests. A chicken
chute is a lot of fun but I've gotten fond of asymmetrics.

Depends on the boat and conditions. A big 50 ft "lead sled" has a lot
of momentum and does not turn on a dime in rough conditions.
Obviously at some point you've got to reduce sail and slow the boat
but no one wants to do that until *really* necessary if you're racing.
Occasional green water over the deck is not that big an issue on a
good boat, especially a flush deck racing machine where there is no
real super structure to worry about.

On Jan 6, 5:32 am, wrote:
dougking wrote:
... Wiht regards to storm jibs, I've been taught that you set them trimmed
tight & flat amidships; not like you would a normal jib. ...

I'd keep an open mind and an eye on the conditions. I've sailed my
storm jib just like any other jib -- I've even set it with outboard
sheets -- but we've been lucky enough to be using it in conditions
where it was prudent rather than required.

-- Tom.