On Thu,2 Jan 2008 14:32:38 -0600, "Stu" wrote:

Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet,
a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had

The 30 to 40 foot seas the Queen Mary was running in , during a winter
Atlantic crossing, were no big deal for a ship that big. Then one
flooded the wheelhouse, over ninty feet above sea level.Took out the
glass. She rolled to within a degree or two of the capsize. I wonder
just how many small boats disappear due to a much bigger than average
rogue wave.
I understand ships, not just boats, still occasionally go missing
without a trace. Hard to believe what with COMSATS and so on.

Casady

On Jan 2, 11:26 am, wrote:
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues. ...

As several folks have pointed out (with varying amounts of tact) the
group did a go 'round on this a few months ago. I believe the main
thread was "Para drogues in large seas" which might not have been the
first thing you searched on. I don't think there would be any harm
in re-visiting the discussion though, given the statistical rarity of
needing a sea anchor or drogue, if you've looked at the Drag Device
Database and the series drogue sites you may know as much about this
as anyone already.

-- Tom.

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:40:42 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

wrote
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues.
Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both?
When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue.
From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea
Anchor.

There was a long exchange here very recently about this. A search would be
more productive than trying to do it all over again.

Usenet is a dynamic environment. Posters come and go.
There's always the possibility for a new experience to be
elicited by opening a topic. Otherwise, it will die quickly enough.
You're right about searching first though.

--Vic

Bob wrote:
On Jan 2, 2:35 pm, Gordon wrote:
wrote:

I just finished reading "Heavy Weather Tactics using sea anchors and
drogues" by Earl Hinz.
He leans heavily toward Para-tech sea anchors and doesn't say much
about drogues.

I disagree. That is not what I gleaned from Hinz work.


Basically, imho, it boils down to the fact that either used properly,
will do the job.

Hummm, and you base that on how much experince?????
Here I disagree strenously!

BOb

Well Bob, what did you get from his book?
And I wasn't citing experiences, only the references.
Why do you strenuously disagree? What are your first hand experiences?
Gordon

On 2008-01-02 16:26:35 -0500, said:

I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues.
Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both?
When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue.
From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor.

Yes, this was discussed a while back, but it's topical, the water's
getting hard up here, and I'm bored. ;-)

My personal preference is a series drogue off of the bow, but that's
because I can unship our rudder and put it below. If I couldn't, I'd go
off the stern as even an large anchor or drogue will allow some motion
which, in combination with the wave action, can trash a rudder if it's
pinned to a stop.

The lower shock-loads and easier stowage of the series drogues are
compelling reasons for the equipment.

My thinking on bow-first: Xan keeps wind-driven water out much more
easily when facing the wind. We've got pretty good reserve buoyancy at
the bow, too. I'm not as worried about breaking waves on our
overly-flat deck compared to taking them in the cockpit, which isn't as
well reinforced as our foredeck. And I wonder if our half-inch
drop-boards (actually the teak trim holding them) will take a hard hit.
The one thing I don't worry too much about is the size of our cockpit
as the bridge-deck is a couple of inches higher than the transom, so
it'll capture relatively little water (though that's still 12-15 cubic
feet or maybe 1000# static weight).

Hmmm. While I'm at it, I should probably add replacing our solar vents
with their plugs to the checklist as while they're low drag and not
easily removed, they will admit water in such extreme situations and a
wave could pull one or more out, putting 4 inch holes over our head.
Probably should also improve the hatch lock-downs and weatherstripping.

If anyone's reading carefully, the above was a re-evaluation of my
previous plans, with an eye to figuring out what should be improved
just in case we find ourselves in such a situation. Highly unlikely in
this boat, but still: What *are* our weak points?

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

wrote in message
...
On Jan 2, 11:26 am, wrote:
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and
Drogues. ...

As several folks have pointed out (with varying amounts of tact) the
group did a go 'round on this a few months ago. I believe the main
thread was "Para drogues in large seas" which might not have been the
first thing you searched on. I don't think there would be any harm
in re-visiting the discussion though, given the statistical rarity of
needing a sea anchor or drogue, if you've looked at the Drag Device
Database and the series drogue sites you may know as much about this
as anyone already.

-- Tom.

A thoughtful, helpful and polite post!
It's a shame that this is unusual.

Peter HK

Hey Vic;

I saw this post with your name. I had used drogues when I got caught in an
extra tropical hurricane "Grace" back in 1991. Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet,
a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had
organized a lot of things using plastic milk crates. When we started
surfing, I unscrewed the milk crates and attached to a stern anchor line.
It slowed us down and things were controllable again. The plastic would
break apart after 5 or 8 hrs. I ended up using all the milk crates. The
storm was still bad, so I ended using my stern Danford 22 S anchor. It
worked but not as well as the crates, the danford would pull down at about
30 degree angle. Where as the milk crates pulled at the surface. Awesome
sight seeing the milk crates explode and tumble down a wave face.

Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase
well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again.
I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows
the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different
type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered.

Stu

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 17:40:42 -0500, "Roger Long"
wrote:

wrote
I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and
Drogues.
Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both?
When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue.
From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea
Anchor.

There was a long exchange here very recently about this. A search would
be
more productive than trying to do it all over again.

Usenet is a dynamic environment. Posters come and go.
There's always the possibility for a new experience to be
elicited by opening a topic. Otherwise, it will die quickly enough.
You're right about searching first though.

--Vic

"Stu" wrote in message
.. .
Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase
well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again.
I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows
the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different
type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered.

Stu


A drouge off the stern slows the boat as well, but I see your point and
agree with it. It seems that the rudder would also be under similar, but
perhaps not quite as much, stress with a drouge. Another thing to consider
is the safety of being able to deal with the drouge from the cockpit area
vs. the bow area.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I understand ships, not just boats, still occasionally go missing
without a trace. Hard to believe what with COMSATS and so on.

Casady

I was reading a weather and safety related site (can't recall the name
at the moment) a few months ago which had the figure of major ships gone
missing without a trace each year around the globe as averaging around
200. Since there was no way to determine what happened to them they
provided no breakdown as the reason why they were wissing. I assume at
least a few of them may be from hijacking/piracy as has been found in
Somolia and elswhere.
Red

On Jan 3, 11:26 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... A drouge off the stern slows the boat as well, but I see your point and
agree with it. It seems that the rudder would also be under similar, but
perhaps not quite as much, stress with a drouge. ...

Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a
sea anchor or even heaving to. The faster you go the easier the
ride. However, you must not broach and you must not pitch-pole. A
relatively small drogue and a bit of sail forward will keep most boats
from broaching even in pretty horrid conditions. I know of a very
fast catamaran that sailed under drogue and spinnaker during a stormy
bit of a Noumea to Auckland race with very good results. I set a
drogue and storm jib and ran off quite comfortably in force 8ish
conditions while a low passed north of me on my way from New Zealand
to Tonga one year. On the other hand, if you meet up with a wave that
can pitch pole your boat you want it to pass you as quickly as
possible and you want your drag device to provide enough drag to keep
you from flipping. So, the ideal drogue would provide just enough
drag to keep you under control most of the time but would dramatically
increase its drag very quickly during a breaking wave encounter.
There have been attempts to make dynamically variable drag drogues (I
recall the seabrake (?) and a ladder foil device who's name escapes
men now). I think the series drogue is popularizing the idea of using
a much draggier drogue and going slower and thus being hit harder by
the seas but also gaining more protection from pitch poling. I
suspect for cruisers going with more drag and at a slower pace is a
good idea since the pitfall of trailing drogues is that it makes
everything seem quite comfortable even when there might be a
significant danger of capsize. But, the slower you go the more sense
it makes to have the strong end of the boat pointed at the weather and
at some point a sea anchor states to look like a less bad choice... I
carry both on my boat.

-- Tom.