On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:32:38 -0600, "Stu" wrote:

Hey Vic;

I saw this post with your name. I had used drogues when I got caught in an
extra tropical hurricane "Grace" back in 1991. Wild ride, seas 35-40 feet,
a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had
organized a lot of things using plastic milk crates.

Can't say I remember those. I recall everything ship shape and, and
never worried about anything hitting me in the head when we got tossed
around crossing Lake Michigan. You probably got those crates later,
when you started cruising the Atlantic and needed to store more
"stuff."

When we started
surfing, I unscrewed the milk crates and attached to a stern anchor line.
It slowed us down and things were controllable again. The plastic would
break apart after 5 or 8 hrs. I ended up using all the milk crates. The
storm was still bad, so I ended using my stern Danford 22 S anchor. It
worked but not as well as the crates, the danford would pull down at about
30 degree angle. Where as the milk crates pulled at the surface. Awesome
sight seeing the milk crates explode and tumble down a wave face.

I *sorta* wish I had seen that, but your description will suffice.
Good thinking, and that might be useful for somebody caught in a
similar situation. Whether you're carrying a drogue, or sea anchor or
milk crates, I've got a feeling that when caught in those conditions
as you were, much depends on improvisation in the end.

Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase
well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again.
I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows
the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards, different
type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered.

It all sounds tricky, and merits a lot of thought and consideration to
the particular boat.

--Vic

wrote in message
...
On Jan 3, 11:26 am, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... A drouge off the stern slows the boat as well, but I see your point
and
agree with it. It seems that the rudder would also be under similar, but
perhaps not quite as much, stress with a drouge. ...

Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a
sea anchor or even heaving to. The faster you go the easier the
ride. However, you must not broach and you must not pitch-pole. A
relatively small drogue and a bit of sail forward will keep most boats
from broaching even in pretty horrid conditions. I know of a very
fast catamaran that sailed under drogue and spinnaker during a stormy
bit of a Noumea to Auckland race with very good results. I set a
drogue and storm jib and ran off quite comfortably in force 8ish
conditions while a low passed north of me on my way from New Zealand
to Tonga one year. On the other hand, if you meet up with a wave that
can pitch pole your boat you want it to pass you as quickly as
possible and you want your drag device to provide enough drag to keep
you from flipping. So, the ideal drogue would provide just enough
drag to keep you under control most of the time but would dramatically
increase its drag very quickly during a breaking wave encounter.
There have been attempts to make dynamically variable drag drogues (I
recall the seabrake (?) and a ladder foil device who's name escapes
men now). I think the series drogue is popularizing the idea of using
a much draggier drogue and going slower and thus being hit harder by
the seas but also gaining more protection from pitch poling. I
suspect for cruisers going with more drag and at a slower pace is a
good idea since the pitfall of trailing drogues is that it makes
everything seem quite comfortable even when there might be a
significant danger of capsize. But, the slower you go the more sense
it makes to have the strong end of the boat pointed at the weather and
at some point a sea anchor states to look like a less bad choice... I
carry both on my boat.

-- Tom.


My understanding is that the point of the drouge is to slow down enough so
that you don't run into the back of the wave in front of you. Perhaps you
said that.... Just thinking out loud.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Jan 3, 8:29 pm, "Capt. JG" wrote:
... My understanding is that the point of the drouge is to slow down enough so
that you don't run into the back of the wave in front of you. Perhaps you
said that.... Just thinking out loud. ...

There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se
(though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster). The
problem is that when the boat is in a trough, independently of how it
got there, the back of the boat may want to catch up with the front of
the boat and that can cause a broach. Adding a bit of drag to the
back and keeping the pull forward helps prevent this.

-- Tom.

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:38:18 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se
(though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster).

That invariably results in a lot of green water over the decks in my
experience, and can definitely pitch pole smaller boats as the bow
digs in and stops.

On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:35:26 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

On 2008-01-02 16:26:35 -0500, said:

I would like to open up a discussion on the use of Sea Anchors and Drogues.
Should an ocean going sailboat carry a Sea anchor or a Drogue or both?
When should I use a Sea Anchor or a Drogue.
From what I see at the stores a Drogue is cheaper to buy than a Sea Anchor.


Part of the problem is that you have to make that decision early in
the storm and you have to know what works with your particular boat
and crew. Difficult, as you don't know how long or how bad the storm
will be. Given enough sea room I think running off appeals to my
natural tendancy to avoid problems rather than confront them.
As far as expense goes, I bought a cargo chute for $15 from a surplus
store, not really much of an expense as things nautical go. I plan to
sew a series drogue with an expected expense of $35.
All kinds of things have been streamed as drogues; warp, tires, sails-
the mast. etc. Many ocean commuters during the 70's had a small reel
type drum with warp and drogue mounted on the stern. This has to span
the interval between 30' waves or whatever your predicted conditions
are so you need to carry miles of line and the drogue had to be
weighted so it didn't surface and lose it's purchase. On the other
hand an 80 year old woman just tossed a ring type drogue from the
stern with 25' of line and said it "slowed things down marvelously",
she continued knitting and ended up in England some weeks later.
In streaming a sea anchor from the bow traditional boats had a
provision for chaining off the rudder at the boat centerline to avoid
damage. The only reasonably recent production boat I have seen this on
is a Falmouth Cutter, an $80k, 22' boat. You would need incredible
deck gear and be dodging with the engine to survive using this method
is my guess. Others have just run off setting a wind vane while they
sleep down below. Have fun.

Hey Vic;

The milk crates were in place before I did the St. Lawrence. All the
creates were attached/screwed in accept for the anchor rode in the stern.
You would have to have wiggled and poked around to find the milk crates.

I now wished that I had taken my camcorder and recorded the seas and
conditions. I just purchased the recorder for that trip and did not want to
get the thing wet. NOW I wish I did take film.... sailing in the Perfect
Storm is something you do not do every day, and hopeful never again. The
only description I can add, when I was on the helm, I would look back at the
waves - but you would not look back, rather UP at the waves and wave faces,
after awhile you don't look back.

Skipping work on the boat today until things warm up later this week. In
the garage today rebuilding the cabinets in the head.

Stu


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 14:32:38 -0600, "Stu" wrote:

Hey Vic;

I saw this post with your name. I had used drogues when I got caught in
an
extra tropical hurricane "Grace" back in 1991. Wild ride, seas 35-40
feet,
a few rolled over the deck. You may not remember, but on Gamgee I had
organized a lot of things using plastic milk crates.

Can't say I remember those. I recall everything ship shape and, and
never worried about anything hitting me in the head when we got tossed
around crossing Lake Michigan. You probably got those crates later,
when you started cruising the Atlantic and needed to store more
"stuff."

When we started
surfing, I unscrewed the milk crates and attached to a stern anchor line.
It slowed us down and things were controllable again. The plastic would
break apart after 5 or 8 hrs. I ended up using all the milk crates. The
storm was still bad, so I ended using my stern Danford 22 S anchor. It
worked but not as well as the crates, the danford would pull down at
about
30 degree angle. Where as the milk crates pulled at the surface.
Awesome
sight seeing the milk crates explode and tumble down a wave face.

I *sorta* wish I had seen that, but your description will suffice.
Good thinking, and that might be useful for somebody caught in a
similar situation. Whether you're carrying a drogue, or sea anchor or
milk crates, I've got a feeling that when caught in those conditions
as you were, much depends on improvisation in the end.

Yea I need to buy a real drogue for the new boat. I hope if I purchase
well made drogue, maybe I will never again see such waves again.
I am not keen on sea anchors, especially off the bow. A sea anchor slows
the boat's speed. When off the bow, you end up going backwards,
different
type of stress put on a boat, think of that rudder getting hammered.

It all sounds tricky, and merits a lot of thought and consideration to
the particular boat.

--Vic

Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a
sea anchor or even heaving to. The faster you go the easier the
ride.

I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to
provides the smoothest motion... the problem is that the vessel is not
under command and cannot avoid being tossed in the largest crests.



.... However, you must not broach and you must not pitch-pole. A
relatively small drogue and a bit of sail forward will keep most boats
from broaching even in pretty horrid conditions. I know of a very
fast catamaran that sailed under drogue and spinnaker during a stormy
bit of a Noumea to Auckland race with very good results. I set a
drogue and storm jib and ran off quite comfortably in force 8ish
conditions while a low passed north of me on my way from New Zealand
to Tonga one year. On the other hand, if you meet up with a wave that
can pitch pole your boat you want it to pass you as quickly as
possible and you want your drag device to provide enough drag to keep
you from flipping. So, the ideal drogue would provide just enough
drag to keep you under control most of the time but would dramatically
increase its drag very quickly during a breaking wave encounter.

AFAIK that's one of the points of the series drogue.

.... I think the series drogue is popularizing the idea of using
a much draggier drogue and going slower

Maybe, but the series drogue is mostly hanging down. As the boat picks
up speed, more of them stream and drag increases. Boat speed
increases, but not as sharply.


suspect for cruisers going with more drag and at a slower pace is a
good idea since the pitfall of trailing drogues is that it makes
everything seem quite comfortable even when there might be a
significant danger of capsize.

Also with single-point devices there's a likelihood that a big crest
will pick the thing up and throw it at you.
This isn't hyperbole, seen it happen once.

.... But, the slower you go the more sense
it makes to have the strong end of the boat pointed at the weather and
at some point a sea anchor states to look like a less bad choice... I
carry both on my boat.


What do you think of the task of switching from one to other if the
sea state gets bad enough to warrant? And which would you deploy
first, which would be the "ultimate"?


"Capt. JG" wrote:
My understanding is that the point of the drouge is to slow down enough so
that you don't run into the back of the wave in front of you. Perhaps you
said that.... Just thinking out loud.


Also to keep the boat from broaching. As waves get larger & more
violent, the breaking crests get disproportionatley large & have a
tremendous wallop. The boat doesn't so much surf forward as get picked
up and thrown like a toy at the beach. This is one reason why bigger
boats are more seaworthy.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Jan 4, 10:08*am, wrote:

Running off is much easier on the boat and the crew than riding to a
sea anchor or even heaving to. *The faster you go the easier the
ride.

I dunno about that, most times it has seemed to me that heaving-to
provides the smoothest motion... the problem is that the vessel is not
under command and cannot avoid being tossed in the largest crests.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Hello Doug:

Did you watch the USCG clip of Red Cloud bobbing along durring the
"rescue"? I noticed what appeard to be two lines off the port bow.
Look as though someone on the REd Cloude rigged a "Pardey Bridle"
attached to a para-sea anchor. ANy thoughts?
Bob

Bob wrote:
Hello Doug:

Did you watch the USCG clip of Red Cloud bobbing along durring the
"rescue"? I noticed what appeard to be two lines off the port bow.
Look as though someone on the REd Cloude rigged a "Pardey Bridle"
attached to a para-sea anchor. ANy thoughts?
Bob

Sorry, no.... didn't see the video, we don't have the bandwidth...
however it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Joe either had a sea anchor
or rigged a drag device of some sort. He's a seaman of long experience
and a resourceful guy.

One type of drag I've used with smaller boats is simply a couple of
long docklines with figure-eight knots in them every couple of feet. A
weight on the end keeps them from getting thrown forward by wave
crests.... that's not a joke, I've had an unweighted one go from
streaming astern to being tangled in the bow pulpit.

One option I thought about but didn't try... simply dumping your
regular anchor & rode over the stern (assuming one is in deep water of
course), should make a pretty good drag and not get lifted in any wave
crests.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Jan 3, 11:06 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:38:18 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
There's no harm in catching up with the wave in front of you per se
(though it gets harder to do as the waves get bigger and faster).

That invariably results in a lot of green water over the decks in my
experience, and can definitely pitch pole smaller boats as the bow
digs in and stops.

Invariably? You need a new skipper! As a former racer of a
trapeze dingy I know that full stop that launches the crew around the
forestay. In the conditions where that happens the winners get to the
bottom mark without crashing even though they will overtake a bunch of
waves on the way... Of course, the dingy racer is moving very fast
over relatively slow, small waves with an unreasonable press of sail
barely countered by the movable ballast of the crew perched
precariously on the back corner of the boat. Racers live to be on the
edge of control. I don't want to generalize too much, but the
situation offshore in an ocean capable cruising yacht is likely to be
very different. Even in a yacht fast enough to be overtaking large
waves the prudent cruiser will reduce sail to keep the boat within its
controllable speeds and will remove sails that press the bow down and
sails that increase the tendency to broach. In many conditions these
tactics will allow fast boats to overtake waves in comfort and
control.

-- Tom.