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Jet Ski overheating problem
"Bill McKee" wrote in message .net... "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ink.net... Planet Earth. And I am not a sailboater, so know I do not have the "right of way" over large ships. Mebbe, mebbe not. otn Who has "right of way"? Technically, the term "right of way" is wrong (exception noted), but to be honest, who is "stand on" and who is "give way" depends on the circumstances. EG Then again, if I was on a ship and you were buzzing around me on a PWC .......... depends on the circumstances............... otn |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Scotty" wrote in message ... "Bill McKee" wrote Who has "right of way"? No one. Bingo! |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Who has "right of way"?
No one. Bill McKee wrote: Bingo! Is that your excuse for running into sailboats? DSK |
Jet Ski overheating problem
DSK wrote:
Is that your excuse for running into sailboats? DSK Bile Bill appears to be one of those boaters who thinks might is right...that whoever has the biggest engine claims 'right of way'. |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Don White wrote:
DSK wrote: Is that your excuse for running into sailboats? DSK Bile Bill appears to be one of those boaters who thinks might is right...that whoever has the biggest engine claims 'right of way'. Its all a matter of perspective. Powerboats doing 30 knots are looking a mile ahead, and since that's only 120 seconds of their time, they assume that the relationships are fixed at that point. The sailors doing 4 knots are only looking 200 yards ahead and never see the powerboat. Bill keeps talking about the other boat turning 15 feet in front of him, but doesn't consider that when the turn started he was probably a half mile away. |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Nah, he'll run into anyone.
-- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "DSK" wrote in message .. . Who has "right of way"? No one. Bill McKee wrote: Bingo! Is that your excuse for running into sailboats? DSK |
Jet Ski overheating problem
He's probably a truck driver.
SV "Capt. JG" wrote in message ... Nah, he'll run into anyone. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "DSK" wrote in message .. . Who has "right of way"? No one. Bill McKee wrote: Bingo! Is that your excuse for running into sailboats? DSK |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article et, otnmbrd wrote: "Bill McKee" wrote in message .net... "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ink.net... Planet Earth. And I am not a sailboater, so know I do not have the "right of way" over large ships. Mebbe, mebbe not. otn Who has "right of way"? Technically, the term "right of way" is wrong (exception noted), but to be honest, who is "stand on" and who is "give way" depends on the circumstances. EG Then again, if I was on a ship and you were buzzing around me on a PWC ......... depends on the circumstances............... Yeah - what your minimum turning radius on full power was..... PDW Yup, you attack a jetski, try to run it over or point a gun at it and someone has video. Say goodby to your boat, your house, your investments. |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net... "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article et, otnmbrd wrote: "Bill McKee" wrote in message .net... "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ink.net... Planet Earth. And I am not a sailboater, so know I do not have the "right of way" over large ships. Mebbe, mebbe not. otn Who has "right of way"? Technically, the term "right of way" is wrong (exception noted), but to be honest, who is "stand on" and who is "give way" depends on the circumstances. EG Then again, if I was on a ship and you were buzzing around me on a PWC ......... depends on the circumstances............... Yeah - what your minimum turning radius on full power was..... PDW Yup, you attack a jetski, try to run it over or point a gun at it and someone has video. Say goodby to your boat, your house, your investments. You know... I just realized that it's not the jet-skis that are the problem, and I humbly apologize. It's the jet-ski owners. Bwaahahahahaaa -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Bill McKee wrote:
"Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article et, otnmbrd wrote: "Bill McKee" wrote in message ink.net... "otnmbrd" wrote in message thlink.net... "Bill McKee" wrote in message arthlink.net... Planet Earth. And I am not a sailboater, so know I do not have the "right of way" over large ships. Mebbe, mebbe not. otn Who has "right of way"? Technically, the term "right of way" is wrong (exception noted), but to be honest, who is "stand on" and who is "give way" depends on the circumstances. EG Then again, if I was on a ship and you were buzzing around me on a PWC ......... depends on the circumstances............... Yeah - what your minimum turning radius on full power was..... PDW Yup, you attack a jetski, try to run it over or point a gun at it and someone has video. Say goodby to your boat, your house, your investments. Video on a jetski? Fat chance, and the video we get will be of a mosquito running into our bow eye, and then dissapearing below the waves. The tape will probably follow. A sail boat cannot catch or get away from a jetski, and a dog would do better to not catch a car. Harrassment is harrassment. Why do you think we have a requirement for boat licenses, now? PWCs is why, and stupid PWC drivers. Old sailors know how to stay away from tankers, mostley. How do you think they got old? Tankers don't bother reporting smashed sailboats, or PWCs, even if they do notice. Got the picture? As Red Green says "Keep your stick on the ice." As I say, "Don't tug on Superman's cape, and don't mess around with Jim." Your widow will have to explain your stupidity to substantiate and justify her claim for your rightfully lost income. My insurance will probably cover it. Go ahead, be an ass hole. Don't, for heavan's sake, even consider taking your smart pills. I tell you this in the hope you will stubbornly and stupidly disobey me, for your own good. We all love you, honest. If you run between a sailboat and a side channel, the sailboat has the right to turn from the main to the side channel, when and how appropriate, considering currents and shallows and winds local to the sailboat, of which you are probably completely unaware, and you better keep out of the way, well clear overtaking, auxiliary engine charging batteries or not. The wind steers a sailboat, and if you can't undersand that, you will wind up in the Darwin Award list, along with all the other mental midgets. Food for sea worms, Billy. Right, or just dead right, it probably won't matter much to me. An auxiliary engine in a sail boat cannot propel or control the boat in the same way as do the sails in a wind. Engine on idle and neutral, charging a radio battery, or running full blast foreward to assist navigating a boat in the teeth of a gust, the sailor is struggling with the wind, stealing a free ride for pleasure, and you are not allowed to choose to try to slide by close and fast, unconcious in the hope that nothing untoward will happen. A sailboat's auxiliary engine may have 15 HP, but the wind has thousands of wild horesepower available. As Captain of your vessel, you are expected to undertand the realities of maritime navigation, deep or shallow, sail and power, flying fish, whale, deadhead or pedestrian swimmer / survivor. It is your responsibility to undertand and act appropriately to avoid a collision if at all possible, right or wrong, now and well in advance. The Logic Of The Universe will prevail. Disobey Poseidon and die. Die anyway. Dead or alive, sailboats have the right to essentially ignore most pleasure power boats. Most of us would never purpously fly into cumulus granitus, staute or mobile, afloat or sunk. Try it before you decry it. Oh, I give up. Common sense isn't, and as a Samurai up against the impossible, for relief, I invoke Godwin's law. You are a nazi asshole, you are, and an insistant and stubborn, stupid, bullet headed one, to boot. I quit. I didn't care, anyway. What's one more or less PWC? Walk the plank. Kiss the gunner's mate. Suck the ocean. Feed the fish. Marry Davey Jones. Say "Goodbye, Yank." H'Ri-Kiri would be such a relief, please try it. But at least it was on topic! Buy me a saki, you foreign devil, you;-) NI! Terry K |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article et,
otnmbrd wrote: "Bill McKee" wrote in message .net... "otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net... "Bill McKee" wrote in message ink.net... Planet Earth. And I am not a sailboater, so know I do not have the "right of way" over large ships. Mebbe, mebbe not. otn Who has "right of way"? Technically, the term "right of way" is wrong (exception noted), but to be honest, who is "stand on" and who is "give way" depends on the circumstances. EG Then again, if I was on a ship and you were buzzing around me on a PWC ......... depends on the circumstances............... Yeah - what your minimum turning radius on full power was..... PDW |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Bill McKee wrote:
.... Yup, you attack a jetski, try to run it over or point a gun at it and someone has video. Say goodby to your boat, your house, your investments. Actually there was such a case in Maine a few years ago. The judge threw it out and the CG lost a lot of respect from the boating community. The sailor ended up with probation for "illegal storage." |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Why do you think we have a requirement
for boat licenses, now? We do? Who does? Where? (Seriously, I missed that.) PWCs is why, and stupid PWC drivers. Well, I know that we non-stupid ones have campaigned successfully for mandatory education and certification for pwc operators, the results have been terrific (lower accident and injury statistics in the states that have these laws now, and better-informed, less-clueless newbies on the water, plus far fewer renters which are the source of a a huge proportion of pwc problems)....and that we also support and campaign for (less successfully so far) similar requirements for all other boaters as well for the same reasons. So, where is the boat licensing requirement in effect - and don't you think it's a good idea? Seems like a no-brainer to me. richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
You know... I just realized that it's not the jet-skis that are the problem,
and I humbly apologize. An epiphany! It's the jet-ski owners. Of course - (well, some of them) - not the boats themselves - they're just boats. And similarly stupid, careless, dangerous, irresponsible, oblivious, or inexperienced operators of all other types of boats too that "are the problem" - that's why licensing and required education (as is mandated for pwc operators here in NY, NJ and Ct,. to the benefit of all pwc enthusiasts and other boaters sharing the waters here) - is such a good idea, it seems to me, and it should apply to all boaters IMO as well as pwc'ers. How is driving a boat different from driving a car? (I mean, why does one require proving that you know the basics of how to do it before you're legally allowed to, the other doesn't? This doesn't make sense to me. Putting in place a system like that would not only make the waterways safer but make money for the states too, seems like a natural.) richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article .com,
wrote: Well, I know that we non-stupid ones have campaigned successfully for mandatory education and certification for pwc operators, the results have been terrific (lower accident and injury statistics in the states that have these laws now, and better-informed, less-clueless newbies on the water, plus far fewer renters which are the source of a a huge proportion of pwc problems)....and that we also support and campaign for (less successfully so far) similar requirements for all other boaters as well for the same reasons. It's really nice to know. Unfortunately, there are still a high percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute to the image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes. Keep at it though... keep at it. So, where is the boat licensing requirement in effect - and don't you think it's a good idea? Seems like a no-brainer to me. I have mixed feeling about requiring licensing for all boaters. On the one hand, some people should not be on the water without some kind of competency test. Typically, if you're going to charter out here, you have to prove you can sail. But, that doesn't preclude people who buy a boat, and go for it. On the other hand, licensing per se, isn't the same as requiring some level of competency. Licensing regs typically extract a fee as the dominant feature, e.g., drivers licenses, don't really ensure competent drivers. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Well, I know that we non-stupid ones have campaigned
successfully for mandatory education and certification for pwc operators, the results have been terrific (lower accident and injury statistics in the states that have these laws now, and better-informed, less-clueless newbies on the water, plus far fewer renters which are the source of a a huge proportion of pwc problems)....and that we also support and campaign for (less successfully so far) similar requirements for all other boaters as well for the same reasons. It's really nice to know. Unfortunately, there are still a high percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute to the image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes. Keep at it though... keep at it. Keept at what? I was talking abaout licensing requirement, which the previous poster had brought up, and how I think they're a good idea. You saw this as an opportunity to throw in a gratuitous dig at pwc operators and to remind me that you don't like them....I"m not taking the bait. Back to the topic at hand: On the other hand, licensing per se, isn't the same as requiring some level of competency. Licensing regs typically extract a fee as the dominant feature, e.g., drivers licenses, don't really ensure competent drivers. Obviously it doesn't "ensure competent drivers," but it seems to me that it's a lot better than nothing, don't you agree? Being able to demonstrate that a person has had at the very least some education in, some exposure to, the very basics, what the buoys and other navaids mean, what the rules of the road are, safety requirements and regulations, how to operate a vhf or use a nautical chart....before they can legally drive a boat.... seems to me would go a long way toward protecting us all from "people who buy a boat, and go for it." That's what I'm talking about. And like I mentioned, in areas that have enacted these kinds of regulations for pwc's, the proof is in the pudding (accident statistics). IMO it's a good start and it would be an even better idea to extend the same kind of rules to operators of all types of power boats. I'd just think that it'd be in all our interest...and if local or state governments made some money off it (the licensing, and the enforcement when uncertified operators are caught and charged a penalty), that would seem like icing on the cake (hopefully some of that money might be funnelled back into other things that would help all us boaters like ramp or public dock upkeep, or marine law enforcement). No? richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Unfortunately, there are still a high
percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute to the image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes. Keep at it though... keep at it. (Alright, I changed my mind, I will "take the bait" to an extent) Keep at it? I intend to, and I have been "at it" for years now... by "it" I mean trying to educate people about pwc's, who uses them, and how, and also actively fighting bans that I and lots of other people feel are patently unfair. (Going to public meetings, writing letters, signing petitions, joining clubs, supporting organizations that fight for my rights to use public waterways, and "representing" on behalf of the pwc community every time I go out on the water.) And I and my friends in the effort have had a good amount of success in this effort. I've probably educated just about anyone I came in contact with over the last eight years, who had any interest in the subject of boating, friends, relatives, and especially fellow boaters, about things they never realized about pwc's, what people do with them, the fact that one has to get licensed to operate them, people are amazed and surprised by the ambitious travel cruises and vacations we use them for, the new clean technologies in use and the unbelievable range and fuel efficiency, and just the type of people (intelligent, respectable, respectful, family-man-type, law-abiding, sensible grownups basically - like me and pretty much everyone I have ridden with) who enjoy and own them, in contrast to their stereotype-informed notions.....and more importantly, there are almost no bans in effect anywhere in the tri-state area where I do most of my boating, although the state has a law that allows towns to enact pwc bans, almost none of them have (a few tiny exceptions, Montauk Harbor, although they won't hassle us if we idle in to get fuel on the way back from Block Island; also Point Pleasant Canal in NJ, so we have to take the long route on the ocean to get to Barnegat Bay which we don't mind a bit!)....and basically my many pwc'ing friends and I have no problems with any of the hundreds or thousands of other boaters we come in contact with out in the Long Island Sound, the Great South Bay, the Hudson River, the Atlantic Ocean, New York Harbor, Staten Island.....I never feel like a second-class citizen, am never called names like an annoying mosquito or clueless moron, basically anywhere in the world except here in this thread. So this makes me very confident that my efforts on behalf of myself and my fellow pwc'ers has been pretty successful in fighting prejucide ad stereortypes.... and most importantly, most of the national park bans that were temporarily enacted a few years back, have been rolled back or eliminated as the scientific evidence from the mandated environmental impact studies, plus of course public opinion on the matter, has rolled in, including two local areas, Fire Island National Seashore and Gateway National Park, have been largely rolled back and just replaced with some milder restrictions....so again I know my continuing efforts, and those of many others, to educate people and fight for our own rights, have met with some degree of success, and I certainly plan to as you say "keep at it." If you consider me your enemy and hope I fail in my efforts, well, then I guess that's the way it is, hopefully you're going to meetings too and arguing for increased pwc bans, that's your right. But really having heard from me, I would think that you would actually afford me some respect, "j.," based on my being obviously a fairly educated, informed, passionate, serious and very active fellow boater. You seem to want to position me in an opposing camp from you because you have had negative experiences with other pwc'ers before, but the way I see it, we are really on the same side and in the same boat, as it were. You should want me and every other safe, competent, educated, responsible boater to have access to the public waterways, just as surely as you want every unsafe, dangerous, idiotic boater off the water. richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article .com,
wrote: Well, I know that we non-stupid ones have campaigned successfully for mandatory education and certification for pwc operators, the results have been terrific (lower accident and injury It's really nice to know. Unfortunately, there are still a high percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute to the image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes. Keep at it though... keep at it. Keept at what? I was talking abaout licensing requirement, which the previous poster had brought up, and how I think they're a good idea. You saw this as an opportunity to throw in a gratuitous dig at pwc operators and to remind me that you don't like them....I"m not taking the bait. You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that group. Silly me. Back to the topic at hand: On the other hand, licensing per se, isn't the same as requiring some level of competency. Licensing regs typically extract a fee as the dominant feature, e.g., drivers licenses, don't really ensure competent drivers. Obviously it doesn't "ensure competent drivers," but it seems to me that it's a lot better than nothing, don't you agree? Being able to demonstrate that a person has had at the very least some education in, some I'm not that sure it's a lot better than nothing. It's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it's worth the red tape, fees, delays, etc. It would be better if, instead of requiring a license, one was required to take a safe boating course. That would ensure the minimum education you're talking about. IMO it's a good start and it would be an even better idea to extend the same kind of rules to operators of all types of power boats. I'd just think that it'd be in all our interest...and if Like I said just a sec ago, I don't think it's necessarily the best place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it. No? No. Just dumb. Oh wait, I'm not supposed to take a gratituous dig at jet-skiers. Sorry. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article .com,
wrote: Unfortunately, there are still a high percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute to the image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes. Keep at it though... keep at it. (Alright, I changed my mind, I will "take the bait" to an extent) Keep at it? I intend to, and I have been "at it" for years now... by "it" I mean trying to educate people about pwc's, who uses them, and And, I have no problem with that, and I'm glad you're doing it. There's a lot of work to do! (NOT A DIG ... jeez, now I'm editing myself for a jet-skier!) in this thread. So this makes me very confident that my efforts on behalf of myself and my fellow pwc'ers has been pretty successful in fighting prejucide ad stereortypes.... Not quite enough... suggestion... how about educating the ones who are still on the water with the noisy, pollution machines. According to your own words, those people are the ones giving your group a bad name. and most importantly, most of the national park bans that were temporarily enacted a few years back, have been rolled back or eliminated as the scientific evidence from the mandated environmental impact studies, plus of course public opinion on the matter, has rolled in, including two local areas, Fire Island National Seashore and Gateway National Park, have been largely rolled back and just replaced with some milder restrictions....so again I know my continuing efforts, and those of many others, to educate people and fight for our own rights, have met with some degree of success, and I certainly plan to as you say "keep at it." If it is shown that jet-skier are not damaging the physical environment nor disturbing the quiet enjoyment of others, I have no problem with them on public waterways. If you consider me your enemy and hope I fail in my efforts, well, then I guess that's the way it is, hopefully you're going to meetings too and arguing for increased pwc bans, that's your right. But really I only argue for what makes sense. You think I'm the enemy because of my first-hand experience with jet skies. That's your right. having heard from me, I would think that you would actually afford me some respect, "j.," based on my being obviously a fairly educated, informed, passionate, serious and very active fellow boater. You seem I certainly afford you "some" respect. to want to position me in an opposing camp from you because you have had negative experiences with other pwc'ers before, but the way I see it, we are really on the same side and in the same boat, as it were. I'm not putting you in any camp. I'm telling you what my experience has been from the time the jet ski first arrived. If things get better, as you claim they are, then that's just peachy! You should want me and every other safe, competent, educated, responsible boater to have access to the public waterways, just as surely as you want every unsafe, dangerous, idiotic boater off the water. The problem is that there is a huge prejudice against jet skiers. A couple of posts on usenet are not going to change that. What will change that is observable evidence by more and more people. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Terry Spragg" wrote in message .. . Bill McKee wrote: "Peter Wiley" wrote in message . .. In article et, otnmbrd wrote: "Bill McKee" wrote in message link.net... "otnmbrd" wrote in message rthlink.net... "Bill McKee" wrote in message . earthlink.net... Planet Earth. And I am not a sailboater, so know I do not have the "right of way" over large ships. Mebbe, mebbe not. otn Who has "right of way"? Technically, the term "right of way" is wrong (exception noted), but to be honest, who is "stand on" and who is "give way" depends on the circumstances. EG Then again, if I was on a ship and you were buzzing around me on a PWC ......... depends on the circumstances............... Yeah - what your minimum turning radius on full power was..... PDW Yup, you attack a jetski, try to run it over or point a gun at it and someone has video. Say goodby to your boat, your house, your investments. Video on a jetski? Fat chance, and the video we get will be of a mosquito running into our bow eye, and then dissapearing below the waves. The tape will probably follow. A sail boat cannot catch or get away from a jetski, and a dog would do better to not catch a car. Harrassment is harrassment. Why do you think we have a requirement for boat licenses, now? PWCs is why, and stupid PWC drivers. Old sailors know how to stay away from tankers, mostley. How do you think they got old? Tankers don't bother reporting smashed sailboats, or PWCs, even if they do notice. Got the picture? As Red Green says "Keep your stick on the ice." As I say, "Don't tug on Superman's cape, and don't mess around with Jim." Your widow will have to explain your stupidity to substantiate and justify her claim for your rightfully lost income. My insurance will probably cover it. Go ahead, be an ass hole. Don't, for heavan's sake, even consider taking your smart pills. I tell you this in the hope you will stubbornly and stupidly disobey me, for your own good. We all love you, honest. If you run between a sailboat and a side channel, the sailboat has the right to turn from the main to the side channel, when and how appropriate, considering currents and shallows and winds local to the sailboat, of which you are probably completely unaware, and you better keep out of the way, well clear overtaking, auxiliary engine charging batteries or not. The wind steers a sailboat, and if you can't undersand that, you will wind up in the Darwin Award list, along with all the other mental midgets. Food for sea worms, Billy. Right, or just dead right, it probably won't matter much to me. An auxiliary engine in a sail boat cannot propel or control the boat in the same way as do the sails in a wind. Engine on idle and neutral, charging a radio battery, or running full blast foreward to assist navigating a boat in the teeth of a gust, the sailor is struggling with the wind, stealing a free ride for pleasure, and you are not allowed to choose to try to slide by close and fast, unconcious in the hope that nothing untoward will happen. A sailboat's auxiliary engine may have 15 HP, but the wind has thousands of wild horesepower available. As Captain of your vessel, you are expected to undertand the realities of maritime navigation, deep or shallow, sail and power, flying fish, whale, deadhead or pedestrian swimmer / survivor. It is your responsibility to undertand and act appropriately to avoid a collision if at all possible, right or wrong, now and well in advance. The Logic Of The Universe will prevail. Disobey Poseidon and die. Die anyway. Dead or alive, sailboats have the right to essentially ignore most pleasure power boats. Most of us would never purpously fly into cumulus granitus, staute or mobile, afloat or sunk. Try it before you decry it. Oh, I give up. Common sense isn't, and as a Samurai up against the impossible, for relief, I invoke Godwin's law. You are a nazi asshole, you are, and an insistant and stubborn, stupid, bullet headed one, to boot. I quit. I didn't care, anyway. What's one more or less PWC? Walk the plank. Kiss the gunner's mate. Suck the ocean. Feed the fish. Marry Davey Jones. Say "Goodbye, Yank." H'Ri-Kiri would be such a relief, please try it. But at least it was on topic! Buy me a saki, you foreign devil, you;-) NI! Terry K Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article .com,
wrote: You know... I just realized that it's not the jet-skis that are the problem, and I humbly apologize. An epiphany! It's the jet-ski owners. Of course - (well, some of them) - not the boats themselves - they're just boats. And similarly stupid, careless, dangerous, irresponsible, oblivious, or inexperienced operators of all other types of boats too that "are the problem" - that's why licensing and required education (as is mandated for pwc operators here in NY, NJ and Ct,. to the benefit of all pwc enthusiasts and other boaters sharing the waters here) - is such a good idea, it seems to me, and it should apply to all boaters IMO as well as pwc'ers. How is driving a boat different from driving a car? (I mean, why does one require proving that you know the basics of how to do it before you're legally allowed to, the other doesn't? Poor thinking on your part. A small sailboat lacks both the speed & mass to do significant damage to anyone. A powerboat doesn't. As I pointed out elsewhere, you guys have up to 100X the kinetic energy of a sailboat of equiv mass due to the extra speed. Better analogy is between pushbikes and cars. Both have wheels and use the road, right? Which is the problem WRT damage inflicted? You're on a control freak crusade because your idiot associate PWC owners have earned you all a well deserved bad reputation. I'm sure you'll ignore this because it doesn't suit your agenda. That's fine. We know you only drive a PWC because you can't aford anything bigger, faster and more expensive. PDW |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Bill McKee" wrote sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. Bill's rule #132.43 ? |
Jet Ski overheating problem
I feel sorry for rich forman and his PWC buddies, sorry they have
to suffer for the actions of morons like Bill. SBV "Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ... In article .com, wrote: Well, I know that we non-stupid ones have campaigned successfully for mandatory education and certification for pwc operators, the results have been terrific (lower accident and injury It's really nice to know. Unfortunately, there are still a high percentage of morons out there that continue to contribute to the image of jet-skiers as clueless fools or dangerous assholes. Keep at it though... keep at it. Keept at what? I was talking abaout licensing requirement, which the previous poster had brought up, and how I think they're a good idea. You saw this as an opportunity to throw in a gratuitous dig at pwc operators and to remind me that you don't like them....I"m not taking the bait. You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that group. Silly me. Back to the topic at hand: On the other hand, licensing per se, isn't the same as requiring some level of competency. Licensing regs typically extract a fee as the dominant feature, e.g., drivers licenses, don't really ensure competent drivers. Obviously it doesn't "ensure competent drivers," but it seems to me that it's a lot better than nothing, don't you agree? Being able to demonstrate that a person has had at the very least some education in, some I'm not that sure it's a lot better than nothing. It's better than nothing, but I'm not sure it's worth the red tape, fees, delays, etc. It would be better if, instead of requiring a license, one was required to take a safe boating course. That would ensure the minimum education you're talking about. IMO it's a good start and it would be an even better idea to extend the same kind of rules to operators of all types of power boats. I'd just think that it'd be in all our interest...and if Like I said just a sec ago, I don't think it's necessarily the best place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it. No? No. Just dumb. Oh wait, I'm not supposed to take a gratituous dig at jet-skiers. Sorry. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Bill McKee wrote:
Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing 30 mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control it if you release the throttle? |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Would you care to tell us the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control it if you release the throttle? As with all jet BOATS (PWC or otherwise)... when you completely let off of the throttle you lose the majority of your steering capability. Not all.. but most. That's why PWC riders match their throttle position to their speed, to maintain steering capability. Of course, the PWC manufacturers realized that this was a shortcoming and invented things like OPAS (Off-Power Steering Assist). Sailboats on the other hand... well that's a sad story. When they become becalmed or lose sail they lose all navigational abilities (short of firing up their engines.. if they have them). They're nothing more than floating buoys at the whim and will of the currents. And that's why, on a sadly regular basis, they block navigation channels, run into piers and moorings, and go aground. And that's also why I spend a substantial portion of my boating season tugging these poor guys around the lake.... with my lowly PWC. After all... we're all BOATERS... and it's the right thing to do. |
Jet Ski overheating problem
You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical
for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that group. Silly me. I have to admit you lost me there. I re-read your previous post and mine, and can't find where you tried to give me a compliment ("that's really nice to know"?), OR why you interpreted what I said as my taking your compliment for an insult. All I meant to do was continue the discussion about licensing/ceritifcation rules. I'm also not sure what group you suppose I'm not included in. Yes, I'm definitely included in the group of non-stupid pwc operators....I promise. (I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa membership, my twenty-year career as a software developer/architect or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a separate discussion, hopefully you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about boating issues.) I don't think it's necessarily the best place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it. Here's where I can help you, or clarify what I was talking about before. The heart of NY state's pwc "licensing" requirement is that you have to take an eight-hour basic boating safety course (it's not a license per se that you get, but a boating safety certificate that shows you passed the test at the end of the course - demonstrating that you have been exposed to, and demonstrated at least a minimal retention and understanding of, the basics of boating safety). So I think we're actually in agreement here, right? You agree with me (and the pwc industry and community at large, for what it's worth), precisely that, as you say, "All boaters should have to take some safety class," that is exactly my position. As far as the "licensing part" and what it "adds to it," I think I'm just looking to make someone take a test to demonstrate that they actually did take the class, and absorb the material satisfactorily. If we're going to mandate that all boaters take a safety class (and I"m really pleased to hear that you agree with me that we should), I think you'd agree that we need some way of verifying that they have, and paid some attention to the information. I'm glad we've slogged through the rougher parts of this chat, I think we've found a lot of common ground and I appreciate your softened, eminently reasonable and flameless tone in the post below as well. richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Keep at it? I intend to, and I have been "at it" for years now...
by "it" I mean trying to educate people about pwc's, who uses them, and And, I have no problem with that, and I'm glad you're doing it. There's a lot of work to do! (NOT A DIG Thanks for the support and I wouldn't have taken that last sentence as a dig - I agree with it and realize it. I certainly afford you "some" respect. And I you. ... this makes me very confident that my efforts on behalf of myself and my fellow pwc'ers has been pretty successful in fighting prejucide ad stereortypes.... Not quite enough... suggestion... how about educating the ones who are still on the water with the noisy, pollution machines. According to your own words, those people are the ones giving your group a bad name. You're right - and I do that too. All of us more experienced knowledgeable pwc'ers always make it a point to take newer owners and operators out on the water and show them the ropes, try to help them avoid mistakes or let them know when they're making them, or offer advice and share information online in message-boards etc (and I'm no guru or anything myself, but have learned a decent amount in eight years of riding). As for the "noisy pollution machines," well obviously it's just a matter of time as they continue to be very naturally outnumbered phased out, since all the manufacturers are under strict new EPA regulations and have just more and more prominently/exclusively offered newer-tech, cleaner/quieter boats....just as in the power boating industry at large. I think you'll agree that there are plenty of "Noisy pollution machines" on the water besides older pwc's, in fact, other power boats seem to have longer life cycles, change hands more times and stay on the water for years or decades....at any rate, there's no shortage of noisy and polluting, or older-tech (carb'ed 2-stroke) engines still on the water in all kinds of boats....that condition is far from exclusive to the pwc world. And with all types of boats including pwc's, the handwriting is clearly on the wall, that an increasingly greater percentage of them will be cleaner and quieter and less polluting year after year due to market forces as well as government mandates. That part of it is not really in my hand or yours (I/we can't force individual people to retire their older dirtier louder machines until they want to), but happily, that's the way things are going and will continue to go. The problem is that there is a huge prejudice against jet skiers. A couple of posts on usenet are not going to change that. What will change that is observable evidence by more and more people. I just snipped out one of my usual long-winded responses - I'll just say this, I think a lot of progress has already been made, I don't really encounter any prejudiced anti-pwc attitude out in the real world, and I really don't see too many problems with it going on out on the water, and I'm out there a LOT, and cover a lot of ground and see a lot of fellow pwc'ers coexisting and interacting with all other fellow boaters, fishermen, law enforcement, kayakers (oh I'm one of them too btw, don't know if that would surprise you or anything - someone earlier in this thread I remember opined that pwc'ers probably don't really love the water or the outdoors, only speed, I guess that stereotype is pretty much deflated), surfers, pretty peacefully, successfully and non-problematically. I think a lot of it is due to the mandatory education requirement that's been in effect for the last five years or six years or so around here in NY, NJ and Ct. richforman richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Jeff" wrote in message . .. Bill McKee wrote: Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing 30 mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control it if you release the throttle? Throttle off, no control, turning radius about a boat length. |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article ,
Scotty wrote: I feel sorry for rich forman and his PWC buddies, sorry they have to suffer for the actions of morons like Bill. SBV Yep.. oh well... At least some of them get the message and are doing something positive. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Ok..
In article .com, wrote: You're really a pill. I tried to give you a compliment and as typical for an idiot, you took it for an insult. You said "we non-stupid ones have campaigned...." I suppose you aren't included in that group. Silly me. I have to admit you lost me there. I re-read your previous post and mine, and can't find where you tried to give me a compliment ("that's really nice to know"?), OR why Ok... well, I was *trying*, but not hard enough. See my post to Scotty. (I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa membership, my twenty-year career as a software developer/architect or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a separate discussion, hopefully you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about boating issues.) I will as long as you don't tell me your a member of Mensa. :-) I don't think it's necessarily the best place to start. All boaters should have to take some sort of safety class, but the licensing part of it I'm not sure adds that much to it. Here's where I can help you, or clarify what I was talking about before. The heart of NY state's pwc "licensing" requirement is that you have to take an eight-hour basic boating safety course (it's not a license per se that you get, but a boating safety certificate that shows you passed the test at the end of the course - demonstrating that you have been exposed to, and demonstrated at least a minimal retention and understanding of, the basics of boating safety). So I think we're actually in agreement here, right? You agree I agree with the boating safety part. So, I guess, yes. with me (and the pwc industry and community at large, for what it's worth), precisely that, as you say, "All boaters should have to take some safety class," that is exactly my position. Kewl. As far as the "licensing part" and what it "adds to it," I think I'm just looking to make someone take a test to demonstrate that they actually did take the class, and absorb the material satisfactorily. If we're going to mandate that all boaters take a safety class (and I"m really pleased to hear that you agree with me that we should), I think you'd agree that we need some way of verifying that they have, and paid some attention to the information. I think the latter part is a tough road to travel. People take driving tests and pass, but they're still terrible drivers and don't necessarily remember the rules for longer than it takes to get from the exam to their car. I think that the best one can do is to have people take the class. After they take and pass the class (which would be a pretty low standard, unfortunately), that's probably all you can do. I'd be happy to hear a suggestion about how to actually confirm that they got it or that they continue to get it. Are you suggesting that they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat. I'm glad we've slogged through the rougher parts of this chat, I think we've found a lot of common ground and I appreciate your softened, eminently reasonable and flameless tone in the post below as well. Well, I screwed up. Don't hold it against me. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article et,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote: Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. I should hope not... we have to consider things like wind and current. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article ,
Scotty wrote: "Bill McKee" wrote sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. Bill's rule #132.43 ? Sub part (d) - for dumb. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article ,
Jeff wrote: Bill McKee wrote: Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing 30 mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control it if you release the throttle? He would just slam it in reverse of course. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article ,
The_Giz wrote: Sailboats on the other hand... well that's a sad story. When they become becalmed or lose sail they lose all navigational abilities (short of firing up their engines.. if they have them). They're nothing more than floating buoys at the whim and will of the currents. And that's why, on a sadly regular basis, they block navigation channels, run into piers and moorings, and go aground. And that's also why I spend a substantial portion of my boating season tugging these poor guys around the lake.... with my lowly PWC. Yeah, it's a sad story not being in such a god damn hurry that we're willing to run over people or hit other boats just because we're late for the next episode of Smack Down. After all... we're all BOATERS... and it's the right thing to do. We are. You guys are just another hazard on the water. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article et,
Bill McKee bmckee=at-ix.netcom.com wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message ... Bill McKee wrote: Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing 30 mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control it if you release the throttle? Throttle off, no control, turning radius about a boat length. At 30 mph??? Right. Sure. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
ok...
In article .com, wrote: Keep at it? I intend to, and I have been "at it" for years now... by "it" I mean trying to educate people about pwc's, who uses them, and Yep. Not quite enough... suggestion... how about educating the ones who are still on the water with the noisy, pollution machines. According to your own words, those people are the ones giving your group a bad name. You're right - and I do that too. All of us more experienced knowledgeable pwc'ers always make it a point to take newer owners and operators out on the water and show them the ropes, try to help them avoid mistakes or let them know Kewl. year after year due to market forces as well as government mandates. That part of it is not really in my hand or yours (I/we can't force individual people to retire their older dirtier louder machines until they want to), but How about a buy back program... good deals on trade-ins. The problem is that there is a huge prejudice against jet skiers. A couple of posts on usenet are not going to change that. What will change that is observable evidence by more and more people. I just snipped out one of my usual long-winded responses - I'll just :-) -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
I think the latter part is a tough road to travel. People take driving
tests and pass, but they're still terrible drivers and don't necessarily remember the rules for longer than it takes to get from the exam to their car. I think that the best one can do is to have people take the class. After they take and pass the class (which would be a pretty low standard, unfortunately), that's probably all you can do. I'd be happy to hear a suggestion about how to actually confirm that they got it or that they continue to get it. Well, like I said, in NY you take the eight-hour course from Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxiliary, then take a test and, if you score high enough, get a certificate from the organization. In addition, you have to take an extra pwc-specific written safety test and get a certain percentage of the questions right, to get an additional certification, which then lets you legally operate a pwc (you then sort of convert it into a more formal "license" from NYS, which is mutually accepted to also let you operate in NJ or Ct.) Are you suggesting that they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat. Now, that'd be really worth something, but I don't think we'd ever see that. Too expensive, prohibitvely complicated to administer (would people have to report to the docks on Saturday mornings and wait in line for boat-driving tests with the coast guard or something?), and politically people would probably just never go for it. For now I'd be delighted if all boaters just had the same requirement that we pwc'ers have now. Just to demonstrate, by taking and passing a written test, that they have had some exposure to the basics of boating safety, and retained the information at least long enough to pass the test! Now that actually tells us a little more if you think about that. If somebody goes to the trouble to take the class and prepare for and pass the test, that puts them a notch up in responsibility and seriousness, than somebody who didn't, in my eyes. Hopefully it tells us that they're serious enough about it to actually WANT to learn the basics and acknowledge the importance of being safe.....and from there I'll be happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that from there they are actually going to start boating and learning more, getting better, learning from mistakes, all the time, as we all have. If they pay any attention at all to the course, they will at least come away with a sense of how much there is to be aware of and to learn, that goes along with operating a boat, that they might not have realized before if they are new to it. If they didn't know this and didn't pay enough attention or at least realize this, then they probably won't be able to pass the test and that would keep the worst of the idiots and jerks off the water until they can at least show that they have started to get a clue. Right now, in New York State, unless I'm incorrect, it is ONLY people operating pwc's that, when I see them on the water, I know they have either had a boating safety course, or if not they will be eventually caught and ticketed. richforman |
Jet Ski overheating problem
In article .com,
wrote: Are you suggesting that they have to do this on some regular basis? Not being too serious, I'd like to see a driving test before you can operate a boat. Now, that'd be really worth something, but I don't think we'd ever see that. Too expensive, prohibitvely complicated to administer (would people have to report to the docks on Saturday mornings and wait in line for boat-driving tests with the coast guard or something?), and politically people would probably just never go for it. I'm pretty politically correct, and I'd love to see it... probably right though... not going to happen. It could be done through local sailing schools for a state-mandated fee, but no matter how you cut it, it would be expensive and unwieldy. I could even see something as minimal as just taking the boat out of the slip and returning safely to Earth. It wouldn't take more than 10 minutes. At one point, I used my reciprocal priviledges with another organization to rent a boat in So. Cal. That's what they had me do... kind of a joke, but I could see their point I guess. One of their instructors backed the boat out of the slip and handed me the wheel. All he wanted me to do was make a big turn and dock the boat. I said, "backward"? But, no just drive it straight in. No current, no wind... odd for letting someone they don't know charter a $1/4 mil boat. If they pay any attention at all to the course, they will at least come away with a sense of how much there is to be aware of and to learn, that goes along with operating a boat, that they might not have realized before if they are new to it. One hopes... Right now, in New York State, unless I'm incorrect, it is ONLY people operating pwc's that, when I see them on the water, I know they have either had a boating safety course, or if not they will be eventually caught and ticketed. Out here, anything goes. However, the CG and local law enforcement are pretty visible. If you look like you know what you're doing, then they typically don't board you. If you don't, then you're likely to have that happen. A week or so ago, there was some guy doing a bit less than 10 kts. near the harbor entrance... clearly marked 5 mph speed limit. The Sheriff told him to slow down, then he was boarded by the CG when he exited the channel. Amazing coincidence. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
Jet Ski overheating problem
"Jonathan Ganz" wrote (I dunno, if you want to talk about my IQ, SAT"s, Mensa membership, my twenty-year career as a software developer/architect or anything else to back up my being non-stupid, that's a separate discussion, hopefully you'll just take my word for it and we can keep talking about boating issues.) I will as long as you don't tell me your a member of Mensa. :-) Everybody on the Internet is a member of Mensa. SBV |
Jet Ski overheating problem
Billy knows he has the right to do what ever he pleases - he has a
credit rating. Really, this thread has been a big eye openner, I used to think water lice were just annoying because the drivers (not pilot or helmsman) didn't know any better. By-the-by billy look it up, a couple of years ago a day schooner master fired his relic pistol at a pwc that had gotten too close. The Coast Guard investigated and cited him for not properly storing the gun powder he had on board. Matt Colie a proud Waterman and Licensed Mariner Bill McKee wrote: "Jeff" wrote in message . .. Bill McKee wrote: Was on topic, but sailboats can not turn as wanted, the rest of the world be damned. And yet, you claim the right to pass within a few feet of a boat doing 30 mph, the rest of the world be damned. Would you care to tell us the turning radius of your boat at that speed, or how how well you can control it if you release the throttle? Throttle off, no control, turning radius about a boat length. |
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