Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Flying Tadpole wrote:
wrote: I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and the main are the furling type. I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the We have three roller furling sails (cutter rig). I would not regard 35 kts as a dangerous situation, especially if it is just a gust but we have a bigger heavier boat than you probably do. Uncomfortable certainly. We might heave to, but fin keeled boats don't heave to very well. You need to practice this a bit to see if you can do it. We can, but we have a modified full keel. I agree that you ought to turn on the engine to help maneuver the boat into the wind. Keep in mind that it is just as effective to go dead downwind as this also takes the pressure off everyone. IME, this is easier to accomplish than to go into the wind. It depends on how restricted you were in ability to maneuver. sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it was a real scare. Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that situation? We have all the furling lines led back to the cockpit so that everything can be handled from there. If you do not, then that is one step you can take. Another step is to keep the radio on so that you will get weather alerts, and keep on eye out for squalls lines. When you see the big thunderclouds and especially lightening, turn on the engine and start to roll the sails in before it gets to you. THis is capsize territory. Was there a reason why you couldn't bear away for a while to give you time to think? (and eg blanket part of the foresail with the main which opens other options). I assume that the wind was a bullet of some sort given it was totally unexpected, so it would pass quickly, and that implies close quarters to land, but you don't say. And if really desperate, you could let the sheets go. (which do you want--a flogged-apart sail or a capsized vessel?) grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
... Flying Tadpole wrote: wrote: I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and the main are the furling type. I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the We have three roller furling sails (cutter rig). I would not regard 35 kts as a dangerous situation, especially if it is just a gust but we have a bigger heavier boat than you probably do. Uncomfortable certainly. We might heave to, but fin keeled boats don't heave to very well. You need to practice this a bit to see if you can do it. We can, but we have a modified full keel. I agree that you ought to turn on the engine to help maneuver the boat into the wind. Keep in mind that it is just as effective to go dead downwind as this also takes the pressure off everyone. IME, this is easier to accomplish than to go into the wind. It depends on how restricted you were in ability to maneuver. sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it was a real scare. Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that situation? We have all the furling lines led back to the cockpit so that everything can be handled from there. If you do not, then that is one step you can take. Another step is to keep the radio on so that you will get weather alerts, and keep on eye out for squalls lines. When you see the big thunderclouds and especially lightening, turn on the engine and start to roll the sails in before it gets to you. THis is capsize territory. Was there a reason why you couldn't bear away for a while to give you time to think? (and eg blanket part of the foresail with the main which opens other options). I assume that the wind was a bullet of some sort given it was totally unexpected, so it would pass quickly, and that implies close quarters to land, but you don't say. And if really desperate, you could let the sheets go. (which do you want--a flogged-apart sail or a capsized vessel?) grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave conditions either. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Heaving-to during a sudden strong gust of wind that struck you by surprise
is questionable. Heaving-to in steady and gradual strong wind has help. Has anyone had practical experience in heaving to in strong Squalls where the wind velocity may reach, at time, over 50 kits. In a Squall the velocity of the wind does not build up it hit you full strength. I picture myself opening a door and then be struck by a squall without any warning! The impact is strong and may damage the rigging. Once the boat is knock down at 90 degrees the sails do not offer any more wind resistance and the rudder become non operational. The idea is to minimize the wind resistance so the sudden impact does not produce a 360 degree knock down. In either case safety harness shall be worn. The other thing to consider is to make sure that you have a wide enough berth to maneuver. "JG" wrote in message ... "Rosalie B." wrote in message ... Flying Tadpole wrote: wrote: I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and the main are the furling type. I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the We have three roller furling sails (cutter rig). I would not regard 35 kts as a dangerous situation, especially if it is just a gust but we have a bigger heavier boat than you probably do. Uncomfortable certainly. We might heave to, but fin keeled boats don't heave to very well. You need to practice this a bit to see if you can do it. We can, but we have a modified full keel. I agree that you ought to turn on the engine to help maneuver the boat into the wind. Keep in mind that it is just as effective to go dead downwind as this also takes the pressure off everyone. IME, this is easier to accomplish than to go into the wind. It depends on how restricted you were in ability to maneuver. sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it was a real scare. Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that situation? We have all the furling lines led back to the cockpit so that everything can be handled from there. If you do not, then that is one step you can take. Another step is to keep the radio on so that you will get weather alerts, and keep on eye out for squalls lines. When you see the big thunderclouds and especially lightening, turn on the engine and start to roll the sails in before it gets to you. THis is capsize territory. Was there a reason why you couldn't bear away for a while to give you time to think? (and eg blanket part of the foresail with the main which opens other options). I assume that the wind was a bullet of some sort given it was totally unexpected, so it would pass quickly, and that implies close quarters to land, but you don't say. And if really desperate, you could let the sheets go. (which do you want--a flogged-apart sail or a capsized vessel?) grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave conditions either. -- "j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Denis Marier wrote: Heaving-to during a sudden strong gust of wind that struck you by surprise is questionable. Heaving-to in steady and gradual strong wind has help. Has anyone had practical experience in heaving to in strong Squalls where the wind velocity may reach, at time, over 50 kits. In a Squall the velocity of the wind does not build up it hit you full strength. I picture myself opening a door and then be struck by a squall without any warning! The impact is strong and may damage the rigging. Once the boat is knock down at 90 degrees the sails do not offer any more wind resistance and the rudder become non operational. The idea is to minimize the wind resistance so the sudden impact does not produce a 360 degree knock down. In either case safety harness shall be worn. The other thing to consider is to make sure that you have a wide enough berth to maneuver. "JG" wrote in message ... I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave conditions either. I don't think a sudden gust is really a big deal. Clearly, one should just ease the sheets or release the traveller, and the gust will past, but if there is a general building of wind, then heaving to is and does work. I've done it in wind over 30 kts in order to calm things and reef. Example, coming out the gate, we found sudden 30kts wind with higher gusts and 10 foot waves. We hove to, settled things down, reefed, and went on our way. No big deal. I guess I'm wondering how one would not see a squall of that magnitude coming. Obviously, one would not want to heave to in a crowded spot. -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
"JG" wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message .. . wrote: I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and the main are the furling type. I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the We have three roller furling sails (cutter rig). I would not regard 35 kts as a dangerous situation, especially if it is just a gust but we have a bigger heavier boat than you probably do. Uncomfortable certainly. We might heave to, but fin keeled boats don't heave to very well. You need to practice this a bit to see if you can do it. We can, but we have a modified full keel. I agree that you ought to turn on the engine to help maneuver the boat into the wind. Keep in mind that it is just as effective to go dead downwind as this also takes the pressure off everyone. IME, this is easier to accomplish than to go into the wind. It depends on how restricted you were in ability to maneuver. sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it was a real scare. Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that situation? We have all the furling lines led back to the cockpit so that everything can be handled from there. If you do not, then that is one step you can take. Another step is to keep the radio on so that you will get weather alerts, and keep on eye out for squalls lines. When you see the big thunderclouds and especially lightening, turn on the engine and start to roll the sails in before it gets to you. grandma Rosalie S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD CSY 44 WO #156 http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave conditions either. I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either. You might be able to google it. They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that was lying ahull. Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC breaking wavelets. I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and demonstrated) was so. grandma Rosalie |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Rosalie B. wrote:
"JG" wrote: I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave conditions either. I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either. You might be able to google it. They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that was lying ahull. Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC breaking wavelets. I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and demonstrated) was so. I tried to Google the newsgroups on this and finally found where I wrote about this before, and it was on the world_cruising list and not a newsgroup. This is what I wrote and what someone responded to me on Tue, 21 Aug 2001 ...I have a video tape about heavy weather sailing (in addition to the Pardey's book and another book and a couple of books about sea anchors/drogues which we have one of, but haven't had a place to try it yet.) I think the video tape makes the point that different boats will have different optimal methods of dealing with heavy weather. The boat in the video had a fin keel, and when hove too, it was broadside to the waves, which would not be good. The experts in the video recommended that such a boat would do better to run before the wind. I made notes on the tape (watched it twice) and this is what my notes say: The tape is "Heavy Weather Sailing", and it was narrated by Mark Schrader (apparently an organizer and racer) and written by Gary Clark and Tim Sevison. The demo boat named "Segue" was sailed off the northern California coast and was manned by Zan Drejes (Bear Flag Yacht Services), Liz Baylis (a competitive sailor) and Allan Little (Merchant Marine Officer and charter boat captain). They specified that the boat was a moderate displacement fin keel, spade rudder boat with a roller reefing (headsail) system and that they were simulating a shorthanded (i.e. cruising and not racing) crew. The tape addressed sailing in heavy weather (various aspects), protective equipment and storm tactics. Various experts were interviewed, and these included: Steve Dashew, Warren Luhrs (President of Hunter Marine), John Jourdane, Olaf Harken, Mike Plant (competitive sailor), Jay Mason (Master Chief at USCG Motor Lifeboat School) who spoke about seasickness, John Neal (author), and David Kennedy (owner of Armchair Sailor Bookstore). Specialists on sails and rigging included Patrick Adams, Steve Taft, Neal Pryde and Pryde's sails manager Tim Yourteff. I have no way of knowing how famous or infamous any of these people are as I did not recognize any names except Steve Dashew. Among other things, they said: Boats with modern underbodies are capable of surfing (downwind as an active storm tactic) well in excess of hull speed, but that older designs are not suited to active tactics. Schrader reiterated that fin keel spade rudder boats increase steering control with increased speed. Dashew also said that medium to light displacement fin keel, spade or skeg rudder boats will steer better at high speeds than full keel heavy displacement boats. Luhrs felt that the Colin Archer designs (implied older designs here) were so heavily built that they could handle heaving to without a problem. Then they addressed passive tactics - a time when even under bare poles the boat is moving too fast to steer. Schrader described heaving too, and asked if a fin keel boat could heave to, so the demo boat tried it. They ended up hove to with the wind and seas abeam, and Schrader said that modern boats tend to pivot around the fin keel. I thought that the boat belonged to Zan, who did most of the helmsman work, and so I assumed that if he could heave his own boat to that it wouldn't work well on that boat or on that type of boat. They did address a drogue once and said it should not be put in from the bow. -------- Answer of another list member and my reply interspersed I believe I bought that video at a flea market for $5.00 then sold it on e-bay when I saw what it was. It was mostly paid for by Hunter. Hunter and Steve Dashew have an interest in light fin keel boats. The video gave me the I got it second hand too. I mostly discounted what it said because I know we CAN heave to, and that we DON'T have a light fin keel boat. So I assumed that the tactics that they advocated would not be optimal for us. I didn't know the connection with Hunter. But that's why I was careful to say who they used as 'experts' - because I had/have no idea who they were. impression they wanted you to believe Hunters etc. are good blue water boats because they can out run bad weather. They then wanted you to believe if you handled the boat like they said it would be safe in a storm. Some observations. When they couldn't get the boat to heave to they tried running down wind. This presented the unreinforced sugar scoop transom to the seas. That was Ok in the approx. 20 knts wind they were in. They were also I think in the bay. Deadly offshore with a drogue to slow you down. Read the comments of the coast guard study on that one.. I don't think they were in the bay - they were somewhere off the west coast IIRC. It was also my impression that the video was intended to be for their version of heavy weather which seemed to be about 20 to 25 knts in protected waters. Kind of a left handed way to get people to buy their boats. Actually might be Ok for people who just want a spacious boat to sail on the bay. They probable can out run bad weather and get back to the slip. Some what harder to do on a long offshore passage. Anyway I was left with a bad feeling that that video could get someone hurt if it caused a newbe to believe the boat could do more than it can. grandma Rosalie |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote: "JG" wrote: I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave conditions either. I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either. You might be able to google it. They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that was lying ahull. Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC breaking wavelets. I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and demonstrated) was so. grandma Rosalie I'd love to see or get a hold of that video! Do you know the name of it... is it commmercially available? -- Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m) http://www.sailnow.com "If there's no wind, row." |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
|
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Kiss my legs please! | ASA | |||
( OT ) Bush in the National Guard: A primer | General | |||
OT More on Bush's Guard Lies | General | |||
Just a few names... | General |