wrote:
snip
So many things were happening that I don't recall the pressure on the
wheel.


One more word. So many things _do_happen when it all goes
pear-shaped. bearing away to begin with gives you that extra
time to get your head together, on an _upright_ vessel, with
less apparent wind!
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
http://www.flyingtadpole.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
The mailsail furls into the mast. It was the mainsheet that got tangled
with the jib sheets. You have a good point regarding the weather helm.
So many things were happening that I don't recall the pressure on the
wheel.


Is this your boat? I'm not a big fan of furling mains. Never sailed on one,
but it seems like you have to be pointed pretty close to head into the wind
to furl it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

I assumed the jib and mainsail can only be furled when in irons. Can
the sails be furled in any other condition?

wrote:
I assumed the jib and mainsail can only be furled when in irons. Can
the sails be furled in any other condition?

Light winds...

wrote in message
oups.com...
I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and
the main are the furling type.

I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails
down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the
sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat
out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not
reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel
angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around
and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it
was a real scare.

Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that
situation?

Thanks,
Bob Bramble


You might want to consider learning how to heave to. It's pretty simple, and
it will afford you the opportunity to deal with the situation in a calm and
reasoned manner. Every boat is different when it comes to heaving to. The
basic procedure is to immediately tack from a close hauled position without
releasing the jib. This backwinds the jib, which slows the boat down. Then,
you need to ease the main a bit to a lot, depending on the boat. Then, turn
the tiller toward the mainsheet (or the wheel away from it). This
configuration causes the boat to slowly scull back and forth. You will have
an opportunity to reef the main every time the pressure comes off it, as the
jib takes over. After the main is sufficiently reefed, then you can bring
the jib to the other side and start sailing. You could then blanket the jib
with the main on a deep reach and furl it in.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

If caught Off Guard by a Squall - what to do:
the fastest thing is to let the wind go through by letting the sheets go.

I have been knocked down by a sudden gust of wind several times.
The first time I got knocked down it was on a bright sunny day when a down
spout took over and heavy rain took over with very strong wind.

Every time that it happened I noticed some black clouds and down spouts.
I can usually see the wind coming on the water and the rain starting. With
the strength of the wind the only thing I can do is to let the sheets go and
open up the sails until the blow is over. Usually it lasted 2-5 minutes
max. Any other tactics could damage the mast and rigging. Any sudden
movement of the boom or jibbing may cause severe damages.

Now when I noticed sign of any down spouts forming or unusual black clouds
in the horizon the alert is on and all sails are trimmed or pulled down.
Or better, before leaving the harbor, if I see signs of down spouts forming
I adjust the sails accordingly go bare poles or stay in.

"JG" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
oups.com...
I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and
the main are the furling type.

I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails
down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the
sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat
out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not
reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel
angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around
and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it
was a real scare.

Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that
situation?

Thanks,
Bob Bramble


You might want to consider learning how to heave to. It's pretty simple,
and
it will afford you the opportunity to deal with the situation in a calm
and
reasoned manner. Every boat is different when it comes to heaving to. The
basic procedure is to immediately tack from a close hauled position
without
releasing the jib. This backwinds the jib, which slows the boat down.
Then,
you need to ease the main a bit to a lot, depending on the boat. Then,
turn
the tiller toward the mainsheet (or the wheel away from it). This
configuration causes the boat to slowly scull back and forth. You will
have
an opportunity to reef the main every time the pressure comes off it, as
the
jib takes over. After the main is sufficiently reefed, then you can bring
the jib to the other side and start sailing. You could then blanket the
jib
with the main on a deep reach and furl it in.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Although much good advice has already been given, there would seem to
be ample room left for confusion. So let me try to suggest a somewhat
more systematic, though not necessarily noncontroversial, process:.

(Step 1 - recovering from a squall-induced broach)
In spite of the best-laid weather awareness and avoidance plans
violent squalls CAN strike out of a blue sky.... During the severe 1997
El Nino, as we were struggling to windward 10-15 NM off the coast of
Maui in very light winds, we were struck repeatedly by strong williwaws
spawned by the huge mountain ranges. With all sails up and no fuel
reserves to fire up the iron genny we were only able to recover from
the resulting broaches by slacking off the sheets, waiting for the
vessel to righten itself and then momentarily running off.

(Step 2 - fully or partially furling the jib)
Afraid to lose in a few minutes what had cost us many hours to gain we
would work feverishly to furl the genoa (after blanketing it with the
furling staysail to reduce friction) and then climb on deck to manually
pull the main down to its third reef points. Even with an experienced
helmsman at the wheel, however, working within the sweep circle of the
boom under these conditions makes one feel like a baseball within range
of Babe Ruth's bat! An uncontrolled gybe is almost certainly going to
become a home run.....

(Step 3 - attempting to "heave to")
Therefore, if at all possible, heaving-to is by far the preferred
solution. Instead of trying to tack through the wind it is often
possible to head up far enough to take the pressure of the headsail
(i.e. staysail or partially furled genoa) and then crank the clew over
to windward far enough to backwind the sail while simultaneously
countering the rudder.

(Step 4 - heading up without going "in irons")
If unable to heave to, IMHO the safest option is to return clew and
rudder to their old position and then to keep turning upwind while
tightening and flattening the partially furled jib (or the staysail)
till your vessel is slowly jogging against wind and waves with the
traveler and boom fully to leeward and the mainsheet just tight enough
to keep the boom from slamming around. Chances are that boom and
mainsail are now pointing far enough into the wind to take most of the
pressure of luff and sail slides while your vessel continues to slowly
sail to windward without the need for starting up the engine. If so,
just go ahead and deep-reef, drop or furl the mainsail.

Have fun!

Henk Meuzelaar
S/V "Rivendel II", Port Vila, Vanuatu

A good post, thanks Henk (more below)

Flying Dutchman wrote:
Although much good advice has already been given, there would seem to
be ample room left for confusion. So let me try to suggest a somewhat
more systematic, though not necessarily noncontroversial, process:.


controversy: why do so many people think they should turn on their
engine? Have they all forgotten how to *sail*?

(Step 1 - recovering from a squall-induced broach)
In spite of the best-laid weather awareness and avoidance plans
violent squalls CAN strike out of a blue sky.... During the severe 1997
El Nino, as we were struggling to windward 10-15 NM off the coast of
Maui in very light winds, we were struck repeatedly by strong williwaws
spawned by the huge mountain ranges. With all sails up and no fuel
reserves to fire up the iron genny we were only able to recover from
the resulting broaches by slacking off the sheets, waiting for the
vessel to righten itself and then momentarily running off.


This is a decision one has to make in a snap... run off (bear away) or
head up into the wind? One of the factors that I'd consider is the
boat's current point of sail. Anywhere below a beam reach, run off.
Between a beam reach and close reach, it would depend on what sails were
set and the handling characteristics of the particular boat. Above a
beam reach, particularly if close hauled, there is nothing to be gained
by bearing away in a squall and the boat may not answer her helm well
enough if the squall lays her over.


(Step 2 - fully or partially furling the jib)
Afraid to lose in a few minutes what had cost us many hours to gain we
would work feverishly to furl the genoa (after blanketing it with the
furling staysail to reduce friction) and then climb on deck to manually
pull the main down to its third reef points.

One issue with furling the jib is that the balance of the boat will change.

... Even with an experienced
helmsman at the wheel, however, working within the sweep circle of the
boom under these conditions makes one feel like a baseball within range
of Babe Ruth's bat! An uncontrolled gybe is almost certainly going to
become a home run.....


If you're pulling down the mainsail, wouldn't the sheet be hauled in so
that the crew can reach the boom in the first place?

(Step 3 - attempting to "heave to")
Therefore, if at all possible, heaving-to is by far the preferred
solution. Instead of trying to tack through the wind it is often
possible to head up far enough to take the pressure of the headsail
(i.e. staysail or partially furled genoa) and then crank the clew over
to windward far enough to backwind the sail while simultaneously
countering the rudder.


Never done it this way, but it's true that tacking into a sudden squall
may not work very well.

With regard to earlier discussion: yes fin keel boats, especially
sloops, do not always heave-to reliably and/or steadily. This is
something that should be practiced so as to know the boat well.


(Step 4 - heading up without going "in irons")
If unable to heave to, IMHO the safest option is to return clew and
rudder to their old position and then to keep turning upwind while
tightening and flattening the partially furled jib (or the staysail)
till your vessel is slowly jogging against wind and waves with the
traveler and boom fully to leeward and the mainsheet just tight enough
to keep the boom from slamming around. Chances are that boom and
mainsail are now pointing far enough into the wind to take most of the
pressure of luff and sail slides while your vessel continues to slowly
sail to windward without the need for starting up the engine. If so,
just go ahead and deep-reef, drop or furl the mainsail.


Very practical suggestion. This heading up slightly and easing the sails
used to be called a "fisherman's reef." It's still hard on the sails,
but less so than uncontrolled flogging.

One of the things that's hard to believe if you haven't experienced it,
is how *noisy* a sailboat can be in a squall. A good skipper must be
able to think clearly & make good decisions in the midst of all this
furor, and also to be able to communicate with his crew without having
them think he's either angry at them or possibly panicked himself.

Have fun!

Exactly!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I've only been caught in 35 knots once, so I make no claim to be an expert.
The course 'demanded' a broad reach., the instructor had a date.

Based on that experience (in a J-37), I'd expect that if one were to fall off,
then roll up the head sail, it'd be broach-city...instantly. It happened to us 6 times.
Why 6 times? It was a sailing class, and the instructor really didn't know
what to do. The next day, ashore, I asked the instructor why we didn't reef
the main. His answer? "Because we would have had to come head to wind"
After each broach, we *were* head to wind.

This thread is of great interest, since I expect to be on the water within a month,
single-handing.

I agree, FWIW, with the poster who suggested that if the wind was forward of the beam,
that pinching up in a gust should work. In my limited experience I've found that there
is a point where the sails lose power, but do not flog...you kinda of 'tease' it.

Will my Yankee 30 (fin keel) heave to? You can bet that'll be tested very early on..
Norm B

Hi, Doug

Thanks for reminding me of the old name "fisherman's reef" for the
boom-into-wind rather than bows-into-wind technique!

DSK wrote:

controversy: why do so many people think they should turn on their
engine? Have they all forgotten how to *sail*?

Couldn't agree more. However, generations of sailors have been taught
(usually under relatively benign wind and wave conditions) to turn
their bows straight into the wind when wanting to make major sail
adjustments. When they first try to do that in a big blow they get the
shock of their life when all hell breaks loose, the bow blows off
faster than they can say "o sh$t" and flogging sails can (and will)
selfdestruct in a matter of seconds. Turning on the engine primarily
enables them to keep the bows from blowing off (so they can let the
sails flog even longer......).

When sailing a finkeeler with high bows that blow off fast, such as our
Legend 43, a medium-sized staysail that can be flattened + inboard
sheeted nicely and deployed in an instant is worth its weight in gold.
To raise sail without the use of an engine, even in boisterous
conditions, we just hoist or unfurl the staysail, sheet it in pretty
good and put the vessel on a close-hauled course after picking up a bit
of speed. If the staysail set is any good it should easily prevent the
bows from blowing off by powering up the rudder. Then one can simply
pull the boom to leeward (with the traveler) slack off the mainsheet a
bit and start hoisting the main. In other words, a "fisherman's reef"
in reverse. No mess, no fuss, no slamming and flogging. I wish
sailing instructors would teach that to their pupils, rather than the
mindless, knee-jerk "steering straight into the wind" routine.


This is a decision one has to make in a snap... run off (bear away) or
head up into the wind? One of the factors that I'd consider is the
boat's current point of sail. Anywhere below a beam reach, run off.
Between a beam reach and close reach, it would depend on what sails were
set and the handling characteristics of the particular boat. Above a
beam reach, particularly if close hauled, there is nothing to be gained
by bearing away in a squall and the boat may not answer her helm well
enough if the squall lays her over.

If one is "only surprised" by a squall (i.e. in the sense of perhaps
reefing a bit too late but not completely losing control), I fully
concur with that approach. However, in major "caught off-guard" squall
situations -- e.g. the violent williwaws I described -- the most likely
scenario is that the vessel broaches almost immediately, thereby
loosing its previous point of sail orientation (not to mention the fact
that many types of violent squalls produce a different wind
direction). Now the first concern should be to try and recover from
the broach by slacking off the sheets while the second step is to
decide on the best possible course as soon as the rudder powers up
again.

If the broached vessel has a staysail or smaller jib that can be
sheeted in and flattened in an instance, I would indeed choose to head
up into the wind and use the fisherman's reef approach to drop or reef
the main.

However, if flying a big overlapping genoa before the broach, trying
into the wind may be asking for trouble. Even with a partially furled
large genoa one will probably not be able to point high enough to do a
fisherman's reef on the main. In that case, I would opt for running
off, at least long enough to get the large genoa (or perhaps drifter)
under control rather than to risk damage by flogging.

One issue with furling the jib is that the balance of the boat will change.

I agree. In our case the staysail provided enough balance (while
helping to blanket the genoa as it was being furled). If one does not
have that option, I would advise to leave just enough of the genoa
unfurled to help keep the COE forward of the CLR. Under no
circumstance should one try to pull in on the mainsheet, however, while
running off with little or no headsail under violent squall conditions.
This brings the CEO back and the result is "broach city" (as the next
poster describes).

If you're pulling down the mainsail, wouldn't the sheet be hauled in so
that the crew can reach the boom in the first place?

As explained above, I would only dare to pull the mainsheet in just
enough to get the main off the spreaders while clawing the slides down
at the mast. In our williwaw adventure, I first pulled the luff down
far enough to secure the 3rd reef cringle at the tack and then started
bringing the boom in far enough to rerig the reef lines at the clew.
Under third reef and staysail we then finally turned back into the
squall in order not to lose more hard-won miles. Altogether, we
managed not to break a single batten or slide, let alone tear any
sails.


Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Likewise!

Henk Meuzelaar