lid (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:
"JG" wrote:
I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave
conditions either.

I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well
known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to
be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I
went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no
longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either.
You might be able to google it.

They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the
boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and
I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that
was lying ahull.

Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the
sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full
fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC
breaking wavelets.

I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've
never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was
just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and
demonstrated) was so.


I'd love to see or get a hold of that video! Do you know the name of
it... is it commmercially available?

Heavy Weather Sailing

grandma Rosalie

Although much good advice has already been given, there would seem to
be ample room left for confusion. So let me try to suggest a somewhat
more systematic, though not necessarily noncontroversial, process:.

(Step 1 - recovering from a squall-induced broach)
In spite of the best-laid weather awareness and avoidance plans
violent squalls CAN strike out of a blue sky.... During the severe 1997
El Nino, as we were struggling to windward 10-15 NM off the coast of
Maui in very light winds, we were struck repeatedly by strong williwaws
spawned by the huge mountain ranges. With all sails up and no fuel
reserves to fire up the iron genny we were only able to recover from
the resulting broaches by slacking off the sheets, waiting for the
vessel to righten itself and then momentarily running off.

(Step 2 - fully or partially furling the jib)
Afraid to lose in a few minutes what had cost us many hours to gain we
would work feverishly to furl the genoa (after blanketing it with the
furling staysail to reduce friction) and then climb on deck to manually
pull the main down to its third reef points. Even with an experienced
helmsman at the wheel, however, working within the sweep circle of the
boom under these conditions makes one feel like a baseball within range
of Babe Ruth's bat! An uncontrolled gybe is almost certainly going to
become a home run.....

(Step 3 - attempting to "heave to")
Therefore, if at all possible, heaving-to is by far the preferred
solution. Instead of trying to tack through the wind it is often
possible to head up far enough to take the pressure of the headsail
(i.e. staysail or partially furled genoa) and then crank the clew over
to windward far enough to backwind the sail while simultaneously
countering the rudder.

(Step 4 - heading up without going "in irons")
If unable to heave to, IMHO the safest option is to return clew and
rudder to their old position and then to keep turning upwind while
tightening and flattening the partially furled jib (or the staysail)
till your vessel is slowly jogging against wind and waves with the
traveler and boom fully to leeward and the mainsheet just tight enough
to keep the boom from slamming around. Chances are that boom and
mainsail are now pointing far enough into the wind to take most of the
pressure of luff and sail slides while your vessel continues to slowly
sail to windward without the need for starting up the engine. If so,
just go ahead and deep-reef, drop or furl the mainsail.

Have fun!

Henk Meuzelaar
S/V "Rivendel II", Port Vila, Vanuatu

wrote:
Yes, the wind indeed felt like a bullet. It was in the Long Island
Sound - about 1/2 nm from shore. In hindsight, it probably would have
made sense to bear away to a broad reach? I did not for two reasons.
(1) I wasn't sure if that would have made the boat more vulerable to
another knockdown and (2) I was too focused on trying to head into the
wind in order to furl the sails.

I sail with arcane rigs, so some of what I do isn't
translatable. However, on both the light schooner and Lady
Kate the AS29, turning up into a bullet is a recipe for
capsize and swamping in the one, and knockdown in the other.
The light schooner (a boat requiring crew) as an open and low
boat would already be sailing with her lee rail down. A sharp
turn into the wind would knock her down further, assisted by a
powerful spade rudder tending to act as an elevator plane
because of the angle, both reinforcing the knockdown; also
stop her dead allowing the waves to take her over also.
Bearing away, turning downwind, brings the boat up to level
rather than heeled. While the risk now is driving under, it
allows time to think and possibly come back to the wind a bit
at a higher speed through the water, or alternatively time to
set up and get the crew coordinated to bring the boat to the
wind and heave to to allow reefing. Because the schooner's
biggest sail is the last, it's very easy to drop the foresail
and continue on main and jib--the lazy man's reef!

All of the light schooner capsizes reported to me have in the
end been due to a failure or an inability to bear away when
hit. Including my own efforts.

The 2.5 tons extra weight and huge watertight volume of Lady
Kate means that a knockdown is an irritation and an
embarrassment, not a drama. But, she's single-handed, and a
cat-yawl with all of a catboat's wilfulness downwind with too
much sail up. In her case, when hit, I heave to immediately,
get my breath back, then start reefing. In those
circumstances, I'm usually in a washing machine chop, but no
underlying swell.

A number of folks in this thread
mentioned heaving to. It seems to me that would be ok if
the jib is
adequately reefed, but not ok as an emergency measure with a
full jib.
What do you think?


I think you need to learn how to heave to, and do that as the
standard first step, rrather than attempt head to wind or
immediately relying on motor. Heaving to is both a
convenience AND an emergency measure, and indeed in emergency
circumstances you should be heaving to to reef, not
surrendering control of your boat (which you are doing by
trying to stop head to wind. What happens when the head falls
off?? Or--given the dependence many lay on motors to hold one
head to wind--what happens if the squall or chop kills your
motor?? (Keep the motor as the last resort, not the first)
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
http://www.flyingtadpole.com

wrote:
snip
So many things were happening that I don't recall the pressure on the
wheel.


One more word. So many things _do_happen when it all goes
pear-shaped. bearing away to begin with gives you that extra
time to get your head together, on an _upright_ vessel, with
less apparent wind!
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
http://www.flyingtadpole.com

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
lid (Jonathan Ganz) wrote:

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:
"JG" wrote:
I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will
heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability
as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've
never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high
wind/wave
conditions either.

I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well
known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to
be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I
went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no
longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either.
You might be able to google it.

They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the
boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and
I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that
was lying ahull.

Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the
sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full
fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC
breaking wavelets.

I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've
never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was
just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and
demonstrated) was so.


I'd love to see or get a hold of that video! Do you know the name of
it... is it commmercially available?

Heavy Weather Sailing

grandma Rosalie

Ah... certainly heard of that one, but never did see it... thanks

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for your good tips! Question: Can sails be furled while heading
downwind?


Jib for sure... never had a main furler, so I never tried. I would think
not.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Red Cloud®" wrote in message
...
On 30 May 2005 16:10:27 -0700, lid (Jonathan Ganz)
wrote:


I guess I'm wondering how one would not see a squall of that magnitude
coming. Obviously, one would not want to heave to in a crowded spot.

It can depend greatly on the layout where you sail. In the western end of
the
LIS, there is land to the south and west of of you, and that is where most
"weather" comes from in the summer. It can be hard to see things coming,
because
they are hidden by land until shortly before they hit you. In the eastern
LIS,
you have a lot more time to be aware of what is coming in most cases. In
the
summer, almost all forecasts include "chance of thunderstorms". From
around
halfway up the LIS (New Haven) to the eastern end, that doesn't matter so
much,
especially if you have radar. You can see the things coming from a long
distance
and usually sail around them if they are headed your way.

rusty redcloud.

I guess that's true.

Interestingly, the original poster said that after the initial gust was
followed by the "wind ...continuing... to pushing the boat out of irons and
over on it's side." This seems to imply that it wasn't just a gust. The
poster follows with "caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping
around and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but
it was a real scare." So, this implies that it wasn't just a gust. I still
think heaving to would be appropriate after easing the sheets initially to
take off the pressue.

wrote in message
oups.com...
The mailsail furls into the mast. It was the mainsheet that got tangled
with the jib sheets. You have a good point regarding the weather helm.
So many things were happening that I don't recall the pressure on the
wheel.


Is this your boat? I'm not a big fan of furling mains. Never sailed on one,
but it seems like you have to be pointed pretty close to head into the wind
to furl it.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

A good post, thanks Henk (more below)

Flying Dutchman wrote:
Although much good advice has already been given, there would seem to
be ample room left for confusion. So let me try to suggest a somewhat
more systematic, though not necessarily noncontroversial, process:.


controversy: why do so many people think they should turn on their
engine? Have they all forgotten how to *sail*?

(Step 1 - recovering from a squall-induced broach)
In spite of the best-laid weather awareness and avoidance plans
violent squalls CAN strike out of a blue sky.... During the severe 1997
El Nino, as we were struggling to windward 10-15 NM off the coast of
Maui in very light winds, we were struck repeatedly by strong williwaws
spawned by the huge mountain ranges. With all sails up and no fuel
reserves to fire up the iron genny we were only able to recover from
the resulting broaches by slacking off the sheets, waiting for the
vessel to righten itself and then momentarily running off.


This is a decision one has to make in a snap... run off (bear away) or
head up into the wind? One of the factors that I'd consider is the
boat's current point of sail. Anywhere below a beam reach, run off.
Between a beam reach and close reach, it would depend on what sails were
set and the handling characteristics of the particular boat. Above a
beam reach, particularly if close hauled, there is nothing to be gained
by bearing away in a squall and the boat may not answer her helm well
enough if the squall lays her over.


(Step 2 - fully or partially furling the jib)
Afraid to lose in a few minutes what had cost us many hours to gain we
would work feverishly to furl the genoa (after blanketing it with the
furling staysail to reduce friction) and then climb on deck to manually
pull the main down to its third reef points.

One issue with furling the jib is that the balance of the boat will change.

... Even with an experienced
helmsman at the wheel, however, working within the sweep circle of the
boom under these conditions makes one feel like a baseball within range
of Babe Ruth's bat! An uncontrolled gybe is almost certainly going to
become a home run.....


If you're pulling down the mainsail, wouldn't the sheet be hauled in so
that the crew can reach the boom in the first place?

(Step 3 - attempting to "heave to")
Therefore, if at all possible, heaving-to is by far the preferred
solution. Instead of trying to tack through the wind it is often
possible to head up far enough to take the pressure of the headsail
(i.e. staysail or partially furled genoa) and then crank the clew over
to windward far enough to backwind the sail while simultaneously
countering the rudder.


Never done it this way, but it's true that tacking into a sudden squall
may not work very well.

With regard to earlier discussion: yes fin keel boats, especially
sloops, do not always heave-to reliably and/or steadily. This is
something that should be practiced so as to know the boat well.


(Step 4 - heading up without going "in irons")
If unable to heave to, IMHO the safest option is to return clew and
rudder to their old position and then to keep turning upwind while
tightening and flattening the partially furled jib (or the staysail)
till your vessel is slowly jogging against wind and waves with the
traveler and boom fully to leeward and the mainsheet just tight enough
to keep the boom from slamming around. Chances are that boom and
mainsail are now pointing far enough into the wind to take most of the
pressure of luff and sail slides while your vessel continues to slowly
sail to windward without the need for starting up the engine. If so,
just go ahead and deep-reef, drop or furl the mainsail.


Very practical suggestion. This heading up slightly and easing the sails
used to be called a "fisherman's reef." It's still hard on the sails,
but less so than uncontrolled flogging.

One of the things that's hard to believe if you haven't experienced it,
is how *noisy* a sailboat can be in a squall. A good skipper must be
able to think clearly & make good decisions in the midst of all this
furor, and also to be able to communicate with his crew without having
them think he's either angry at them or possibly panicked himself.

Have fun!

Exactly!

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

I've only been caught in 35 knots once, so I make no claim to be an expert.
The course 'demanded' a broad reach., the instructor had a date.

Based on that experience (in a J-37), I'd expect that if one were to fall off,
then roll up the head sail, it'd be broach-city...instantly. It happened to us 6 times.
Why 6 times? It was a sailing class, and the instructor really didn't know
what to do. The next day, ashore, I asked the instructor why we didn't reef
the main. His answer? "Because we would have had to come head to wind"
After each broach, we *were* head to wind.

This thread is of great interest, since I expect to be on the water within a month,
single-handing.

I agree, FWIW, with the poster who suggested that if the wind was forward of the beam,
that pinching up in a gust should work. In my limited experience I've found that there
is a point where the sails lose power, but do not flog...you kinda of 'tease' it.

Will my Yankee 30 (fin keel) heave to? You can bet that'll be tested very early on..
Norm B