"JG" wrote:
"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .

wrote:
I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and
the main are the furling type.

I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails
down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the

We have three roller furling sails (cutter rig). I would not regard
35 kts as a dangerous situation, especially if it is just a gust but
we have a bigger heavier boat than you probably do. Uncomfortable
certainly.

We might heave to, but fin keeled boats don't heave to very well. You
need to practice this a bit to see if you can do it. We can, but we
have a modified full keel.

I agree that you ought to turn on the engine to help maneuver the boat
into the wind. Keep in mind that it is just as effective to go dead
downwind as this also takes the pressure off everyone. IME, this is
easier to accomplish than to go into the wind. It depends on how
restricted you were in ability to maneuver.

sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat
out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not
reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel
angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around
and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it
was a real scare.

Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that
situation?

We have all the furling lines led back to the cockpit so that
everything can be handled from there. If you do not, then that is one
step you can take.

Another step is to keep the radio on so that you will get weather
alerts, and keep on eye out for squalls lines. When you see the big
thunderclouds and especially lightening, turn on the engine and start
to roll the sails in before it gets to you.

grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id1.html

I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave
conditions either.

I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well
known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to
be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I
went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no
longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either.
You might be able to google it.

They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the
boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and
I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that
was lying ahull.

Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the
sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full
fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC
breaking wavelets.

I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've
never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was
just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and
demonstrated) was so.

grandma Rosalie

Rosalie B. wrote:

"JG" wrote:

I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave
conditions either.

I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well
known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to
be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I
went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no
longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either.
You might be able to google it.

They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the
boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and
I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that
was lying ahull.

Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the
sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full
fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC
breaking wavelets.

I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've
never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was
just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and
demonstrated) was so.

I tried to Google the newsgroups on this and finally found where I
wrote about this before, and it was on the world_cruising list and not
a newsgroup.

This is what I wrote and what someone responded to me on

Tue, 21 Aug 2001

...I have a video tape about heavy weather sailing (in addition to the
Pardey's book and another book and a couple of books about sea
anchors/drogues which we have one of, but haven't had a place to try
it yet.)

I think the video tape makes the point that different boats will have
different optimal methods of dealing with heavy weather. The boat in
the video had a fin keel, and when hove too, it was broadside to the
waves, which would not be good. The experts in the video recommended
that such a boat would do better to run before the wind. I made notes
on the tape (watched it twice) and this is what my notes say:

The tape is "Heavy Weather Sailing", and it was narrated by Mark Schrader
(apparently an organizer and racer) and written by Gary Clark and Tim Sevison.

The demo boat named "Segue" was sailed off the northern California coast
and was manned by Zan Drejes (Bear Flag Yacht Services), Liz Baylis (a
competitive sailor) and Allan Little (Merchant Marine Officer and charter
boat captain). They specified that the boat was a moderate displacement
fin keel, spade rudder boat with a roller reefing (headsail) system and
that they were simulating a shorthanded (i.e. cruising and not racing)
crew.

The tape addressed sailing in heavy weather (various aspects), protective
equipment and storm tactics. Various experts were interviewed, and these
included:

Steve Dashew, Warren Luhrs (President of Hunter Marine), John Jourdane,
Olaf Harken, Mike Plant (competitive sailor), Jay Mason (Master Chief at
USCG Motor Lifeboat School) who spoke about seasickness, John Neal
(author), and David Kennedy (owner of Armchair Sailor Bookstore).

Specialists on sails and rigging included Patrick Adams, Steve Taft, Neal
Pryde and Pryde's sails manager Tim Yourteff. I have no way of knowing how
famous or infamous any of these people are as I did not recognize any names
except Steve Dashew.

Among other things, they said: Boats with modern underbodies are capable
of surfing (downwind as an active storm tactic) well in excess of hull
speed, but that older designs are not suited to active tactics. Schrader
reiterated that fin keel spade rudder boats increase steering control with
increased speed. Dashew also said that medium to light displacement fin
keel, spade or skeg rudder boats will steer better at high speeds than full
keel heavy displacement boats. Luhrs felt that the Colin Archer designs
(implied older designs here) were so heavily built that they could handle
heaving to without a problem.

Then they addressed passive tactics - a time when even under bare poles the
boat is moving too fast to steer. Schrader described heaving too, and
asked if a fin keel boat could heave to, so the demo boat tried it. They
ended up hove to with the wind and seas abeam, and Schrader said that
modern boats tend to pivot around the fin keel.

I thought that the boat belonged to Zan, who did most of the helmsman work,
and so I assumed that if he could heave his own boat to that it wouldn't
work well on that boat or on that type of boat.

They did address a drogue once and said it should not be put in from the
bow.
--------

Answer of another list member and
my reply interspersed

I believe I bought that video at a flea market for $5.00 then sold it on e-bay
when I saw what it was. It was mostly paid for by Hunter. Hunter and Steve
Dashew have an interest in light fin keel boats. The video gave me the

I got it second hand too. I mostly discounted what it said because I
know we CAN heave to, and that we DON'T have a light fin keel boat.
So I assumed that the tactics that they advocated would not be optimal
for us. I didn't know the connection with Hunter. But that's why I
was careful to say who they used as 'experts' - because I had/have no
idea who they were.

impression they wanted you to believe Hunters etc. are good blue water boats
because they can out run bad weather. They then wanted you to believe if you
handled the boat like they said it would be safe in a storm.
Some observations. When they couldn't get the boat to heave to they tried
running down wind. This presented the unreinforced sugar scoop transom to the
seas. That was Ok in the approx. 20 knts wind they were in. They were also I
think in the bay. Deadly offshore with a drogue to slow you down. Read the
comments of the coast guard study on that one..

I don't think they were in the bay - they were somewhere off the west
coast IIRC.

It was also my impression that the video was intended to be for their version of
heavy weather which seemed to be about 20 to 25 knts in protected waters. Kind
of a left handed way to get people to buy their boats. Actually might be Ok for
people who just want a spacious boat to sail on the bay. They probable can out
run bad weather and get back to the slip. Some what harder to do on a long
offshore passage.
Anyway I was left with a bad feeling that that video could get someone hurt if
it caused a newbe to believe the boat could do more than it can.


grandma Rosalie

In article ,
Denis Marier wrote:
Heaving-to during a sudden strong gust of wind that struck you by surprise
is questionable. Heaving-to in steady and gradual strong wind has help.
Has anyone had practical experience in heaving to in strong Squalls where
the wind velocity may reach, at time, over 50 kits. In a Squall the
velocity of the wind does not build up it hit you full strength. I picture
myself opening a door and then be struck by a squall without any warning!
The impact is strong and may damage the rigging. Once the boat is knock
down at 90 degrees the sails do not offer any more wind resistance and the
rudder become non operational. The idea is to minimize the wind resistance
so the sudden impact does not produce a 360 degree knock down. In either
case safety harness shall be worn. The other thing to consider is to make
sure that you have a wide enough berth to maneuver.
"JG" wrote in message
...
I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've
never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave
conditions either.

I don't think a sudden gust is really a big deal. Clearly, one should
just ease the sheets or release the traveller, and the gust will past,
but if there is a general building of wind, then heaving to is and
does work. I've done it in wind over 30 kts in order to calm things
and reef.

Example, coming out the gate, we found sudden 30kts wind with higher
gusts and 10 foot waves. We hove to, settled things down, reefed, and
went on our way. No big deal.

I guess I'm wondering how one would not see a squall of that magnitude
coming. Obviously, one would not want to heave to in a crowded spot.

--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:
"JG" wrote:
I've never had any trouble heaving-to on fin keel boats.. rarely sail on
others. In fact, even the small Holders with retractable keels will heave
to. Why do you say that? They may not be hove to with as much stability as
other keel boats, but it usually works sufficiently for a squal. I've never
heard any reports that say they wouldn't do ok in offshore, high wind/wave
conditions either.

I have a video tape on heavy weather sailing in which several well
known sailors (west coast mostly IIRC) went through various tactics to
be used in high winds etc. The last time this question came up, I
went to the tape and copied down the names of these people, but I no
longer have those notes, and am not sure where the tape is either.
You might be able to google it.

They could not heave to effectively in a fin keeled boat so that the
boat would not still be traveling - slower speed but still moving, and
I think they were worried about the boat broaching? - but maybe that
was lying ahull.

Mostly I think because there's not enough underwater to balance the
sails. Now of course this wasn't just for a squall, but a full
fledged storm - they were out in winds that were very brisk with IIRC
breaking wavelets.

I didn't say that fin keel boats would not do well offshore, and I've
never been on a fin keel boat to my knowledge, so I don't know. I was
just relying on what all these big names in sailing said (and
demonstrated) was so.

grandma Rosalie

I'd love to see or get a hold of that video! Do you know the name of
it... is it commmercially available?



--
Jonathan Ganz (j gan z @ $ail no w.c=o=m)
http://www.sailnow.com
"If there's no wind, row."

Yes, the wind indeed felt like a bullet. It was in the Long Island
Sound - about 1/2 nm from shore. In hindsight, it probably would have
made sense to bear away to a broad reach? I did not for two reasons.
(1) I wasn't sure if that would have made the boat more vulerable to
another knockdown and (2) I was too focused on trying to head into the
wind in order to furl the sails. A number of folks in this thread
mentioned heaving to. It seems to me that would be ok if the jib is
adequately reefed, but not ok as an emergency measure with a full jib.
What do you think?

I assumed the jib and mainsail can only be furled when in irons. Can
the sails be furled in any other condition?

The mailsail furls into the mast. It was the mainsheet that got tangled
with the jib sheets. You have a good point regarding the weather helm.
So many things were happening that I don't recall the pressure on the
wheel.

Thanks for your good tips! Question: Can sails be furled while heading
downwind?

wrote:
I assumed the jib and mainsail can only be furled when in irons. Can
the sails be furled in any other condition?

Light winds...

" wrote:

Thanks for your good tips! Question: Can sails be furled while heading
downwind?

We do it.

grandma Rosalie