Thanks for your good tips! Question: Can sails be furled while heading
downwind?

" wrote:

Thanks for your good tips! Question: Can sails be furled while heading
downwind?

We do it.

grandma Rosalie

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for your good tips! Question: Can sails be furled while heading
downwind?


Jib for sure... never had a main furler, so I never tried. I would think
not.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

Yes, the wind indeed felt like a bullet. It was in the Long Island
Sound - about 1/2 nm from shore. In hindsight, it probably would have
made sense to bear away to a broad reach? I did not for two reasons.
(1) I wasn't sure if that would have made the boat more vulerable to
another knockdown and (2) I was too focused on trying to head into the
wind in order to furl the sails. A number of folks in this thread
mentioned heaving to. It seems to me that would be ok if the jib is
adequately reefed, but not ok as an emergency measure with a full jib.
What do you think?

wrote:
Yes, the wind indeed felt like a bullet. It was in the Long Island
Sound - about 1/2 nm from shore. In hindsight, it probably would have
made sense to bear away to a broad reach? I did not for two reasons.
(1) I wasn't sure if that would have made the boat more vulerable to
another knockdown and (2) I was too focused on trying to head into the
wind in order to furl the sails.

I sail with arcane rigs, so some of what I do isn't
translatable. However, on both the light schooner and Lady
Kate the AS29, turning up into a bullet is a recipe for
capsize and swamping in the one, and knockdown in the other.
The light schooner (a boat requiring crew) as an open and low
boat would already be sailing with her lee rail down. A sharp
turn into the wind would knock her down further, assisted by a
powerful spade rudder tending to act as an elevator plane
because of the angle, both reinforcing the knockdown; also
stop her dead allowing the waves to take her over also.
Bearing away, turning downwind, brings the boat up to level
rather than heeled. While the risk now is driving under, it
allows time to think and possibly come back to the wind a bit
at a higher speed through the water, or alternatively time to
set up and get the crew coordinated to bring the boat to the
wind and heave to to allow reefing. Because the schooner's
biggest sail is the last, it's very easy to drop the foresail
and continue on main and jib--the lazy man's reef!

All of the light schooner capsizes reported to me have in the
end been due to a failure or an inability to bear away when
hit. Including my own efforts.

The 2.5 tons extra weight and huge watertight volume of Lady
Kate means that a knockdown is an irritation and an
embarrassment, not a drama. But, she's single-handed, and a
cat-yawl with all of a catboat's wilfulness downwind with too
much sail up. In her case, when hit, I heave to immediately,
get my breath back, then start reefing. In those
circumstances, I'm usually in a washing machine chop, but no
underlying swell.

A number of folks in this thread
mentioned heaving to. It seems to me that would be ok if
the jib is
adequately reefed, but not ok as an emergency measure with a
full jib.
What do you think?


I think you need to learn how to heave to, and do that as the
standard first step, rrather than attempt head to wind or
immediately relying on motor. Heaving to is both a
convenience AND an emergency measure, and indeed in emergency
circumstances you should be heaving to to reef, not
surrendering control of your boat (which you are doing by
trying to stop head to wind. What happens when the head falls
off?? Or--given the dependence many lay on motors to hold one
head to wind--what happens if the squall or chop kills your
motor?? (Keep the motor as the last resort, not the first)
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
http://www.flyingtadpole.com

On 2005-05-31, Flying Tadpole wrote:

I sail with arcane rigs, so some of what I do isn't
translatable. However, on both the light schooner and Lady
Kate the AS29, turning up into a bullet is a recipe for
capsize and swamping in the one, and knockdown in the other.
The light schooner (a boat requiring crew) as an open and low
boat would already be sailing with her lee rail down. A sharp
turn into the wind would knock her down further, assisted by a
powerful spade rudder tending to act as an elevator plane
because of the angle, both reinforcing the knockdown; also
stop her dead allowing the waves to take her over also.
Bearing away, turning downwind, brings the boat up to level
rather than heeled.

I'm trying to picture turning up producing more heeling force and
having difficulty. I've been sailing dinghies recently and if hit
by a gust, feathering up reduces the heeling force whilst bearing
away places more of the sail square on to the wind and increases
the heeling. How is the schooner different?

--
Andy Repton

Andy Repton wrote:
On 2005-05-31, Flying Tadpole wrote:

I sail with arcane rigs, so some of what I do isn't
translatable. However, on both the light schooner and Lady
Kate the AS29, turning up into a bullet is a recipe for
capsize and swamping in the one, and knockdown in the other.
The light schooner (a boat requiring crew) as an open and low
boat would already be sailing with her lee rail down. A sharp
turn into the wind would knock her down further, assisted by a
powerful spade rudder tending to act as an elevator plane
because of the angle, both reinforcing the knockdown; also
stop her dead allowing the waves to take her over also.
Bearing away, turning downwind, brings the boat up to level
rather than heeled.


I'm trying to picture turning up producing more heeling force and
having difficulty. I've been sailing dinghies recently and if hit
by a gust, feathering up reduces the heeling force whilst bearing
away places more of the sail square on to the wind and increases
the heeling. How is the schooner different?


First, we always sailed her as hard as possible, so anywhere
on the wind the lee rail would tend to be a few inches above
the water. Think "not much scope for error"

Second, the rudder is way aft, deep and powerful, pintle hung
and _not_ balanced, carrying over a quarter of the lateral
plane the daggerboard carries half-and-a-bit when heeled, and
the chine (sharpie hull) carries the rest. Think "lots of
water/pressure at the rudder"

Third, the boat, though half a ton with a two-up crew, is as
rapid in response to helm movement as a small dinghy and will
be travelling, in the circumstances described, well over hull
speed. 8-12 knots depending on where the wind is. Think "momentum"

Putting the helm down to round up, sets the rudder, on an
already heeling hull, acting like an elevator plane, heeling
the boat further as she starts spinnong ruound. At this
point, the lee rail cuts under...boat slows, and blows over
(or would, but we've probably let fly the sheets at this
point, of up to four sails.

Incidentally, the hull shape is sufficiently narrow for its
length _not_ to also suddenly transform the boat into a foul
mouthed broaching monster, which is what happens to most of
the trailable yachts in her sailing grounds.

The falling off when hit by a bullet is also a standard
catamaran trick, and we used it to the same advantage.
Bullet? Fall off, come more upright, pick up speed, come back
on course at higher speed. Really too much bullet? Ease the
sheet while doing so. Really, really too much bullet? Still
fall off to recover, then come to the wind while easing sheets
(staying as upright as possible) and heave to to reef.
Incidentally, the boat fore-reaches at about 2knots hove-to,
so in close proximity to obstacles, reefing is done as fast as
possible.

More info on the website, from memory
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
http://www.flyingtadpole.com

wrote:
I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and
the main are the furling type.

I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails
down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the
sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat
out of irons and over on it's side.

This happened because when you turn into the wind and the sails stop
driving, the boat stops... which means that water stop flowing past the
rudder and you can no longer steer.

... Unfortunately, the sails were not
reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel
angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around
and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it
was a real scare.

Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that
situation?


1- don't "release" the sheets, ease them under control.
2- if you have furling sails, haul in the furling line and reduce sail area.

Don't let sails flog, this causes damage. There is also the risk of a
sheet innjuring crew, or tangling on something and yanking it apart. A
35 knot squall isn't really so bad, but it can be a test.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

How did this happen? I am sure it is possible, especially if you have
no knowledge of sudden thunderstorms but............
I'd ease the jib sheet while rolling it in and also ease main sheet.
At first sign of a squall, or even thunder, I start engine just to have
it ready.
When the jib is furled have someone go on cabin top and pull down main
even if you are not into the wind but use engine to go into the wind.
However, allowinbg the lines to whip around should not cause real
problems, particularly with the jib sheets, if it does, perhaps you
need to rethink how they are led. I can imagine them getting caught on
the forehatch.
Other than flogging, how can easing the main cause problems? How can
it tangle? Perhaps you tried dropping the main without someone to pull
it down?
If you had gotten the jib under control, allowing the main to flog
should have kept you turned into the wind.
Something is wrong with this scenario, it doesnt seem to fit how my
boat behaves.
Doesnt the boat have weather helm to make it turn into the wind? Mine
does. Under such a situation, she'd turn into the wind so hard you
couldnt hold her off the wind, eventually the heel would be so much the
tiller wouldnt grab and she'd round up into the wind.
Next time, be prepared for sudden winds from a squall, they dont happen
out of nowhere (most of the time). Even thunderstorms imbedded in a
background frequently announce themselves by thunder and then by a
blast of cold wind. When you feel that cold wind, get those sails
down. However, you made it all work and know what to look for next
time.

The mailsail furls into the mast. It was the mainsheet that got tangled
with the jib sheets. You have a good point regarding the weather helm.
So many things were happening that I don't recall the pressure on the
wheel.