wrote:

I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and
the main are the furling type.

I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails
down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the
sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat
out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not
reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel
angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around
and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it
was a real scare.

Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that
situation?

Thanks,
Bob Bramble


Ease sheets, haul on reefing lines. Wake up! pay attention, reef
early. There are no plumbers at sea, Billy, and no excuses, neither.

Twenty lashes for you, Billy!

Do you have a "Competancy card?"

Jeeze the cops around here wear jackboots in their zodiaks.
Probably don't know what "heave to" means, though they yell it at
powerboats all the time.

They don't dare say it to a sailboater. Imagine if you can a bullet
head just upwind and abeam saying "Heave to!" while brandishing a
gun. Whatta ya gonna do? Helm hard over, one sunk zodiak, or an
attempted murder charge, or bullet holes in your sails? Disobediance
of a lawful command?

Or act stupid and toss over two beers?

Stupid human tricks, eh?

Terry K

Hi, Doug

Thanks for reminding me of the old name "fisherman's reef" for the
boom-into-wind rather than bows-into-wind technique!

DSK wrote:

controversy: why do so many people think they should turn on their
engine? Have they all forgotten how to *sail*?

Couldn't agree more. However, generations of sailors have been taught
(usually under relatively benign wind and wave conditions) to turn
their bows straight into the wind when wanting to make major sail
adjustments. When they first try to do that in a big blow they get the
shock of their life when all hell breaks loose, the bow blows off
faster than they can say "o sh$t" and flogging sails can (and will)
selfdestruct in a matter of seconds. Turning on the engine primarily
enables them to keep the bows from blowing off (so they can let the
sails flog even longer......).

When sailing a finkeeler with high bows that blow off fast, such as our
Legend 43, a medium-sized staysail that can be flattened + inboard
sheeted nicely and deployed in an instant is worth its weight in gold.
To raise sail without the use of an engine, even in boisterous
conditions, we just hoist or unfurl the staysail, sheet it in pretty
good and put the vessel on a close-hauled course after picking up a bit
of speed. If the staysail set is any good it should easily prevent the
bows from blowing off by powering up the rudder. Then one can simply
pull the boom to leeward (with the traveler) slack off the mainsheet a
bit and start hoisting the main. In other words, a "fisherman's reef"
in reverse. No mess, no fuss, no slamming and flogging. I wish
sailing instructors would teach that to their pupils, rather than the
mindless, knee-jerk "steering straight into the wind" routine.


This is a decision one has to make in a snap... run off (bear away) or
head up into the wind? One of the factors that I'd consider is the
boat's current point of sail. Anywhere below a beam reach, run off.
Between a beam reach and close reach, it would depend on what sails were
set and the handling characteristics of the particular boat. Above a
beam reach, particularly if close hauled, there is nothing to be gained
by bearing away in a squall and the boat may not answer her helm well
enough if the squall lays her over.

If one is "only surprised" by a squall (i.e. in the sense of perhaps
reefing a bit too late but not completely losing control), I fully
concur with that approach. However, in major "caught off-guard" squall
situations -- e.g. the violent williwaws I described -- the most likely
scenario is that the vessel broaches almost immediately, thereby
loosing its previous point of sail orientation (not to mention the fact
that many types of violent squalls produce a different wind
direction). Now the first concern should be to try and recover from
the broach by slacking off the sheets while the second step is to
decide on the best possible course as soon as the rudder powers up
again.

If the broached vessel has a staysail or smaller jib that can be
sheeted in and flattened in an instance, I would indeed choose to head
up into the wind and use the fisherman's reef approach to drop or reef
the main.

However, if flying a big overlapping genoa before the broach, trying
into the wind may be asking for trouble. Even with a partially furled
large genoa one will probably not be able to point high enough to do a
fisherman's reef on the main. In that case, I would opt for running
off, at least long enough to get the large genoa (or perhaps drifter)
under control rather than to risk damage by flogging.

One issue with furling the jib is that the balance of the boat will change.

I agree. In our case the staysail provided enough balance (while
helping to blanket the genoa as it was being furled). If one does not
have that option, I would advise to leave just enough of the genoa
unfurled to help keep the COE forward of the CLR. Under no
circumstance should one try to pull in on the mainsheet, however, while
running off with little or no headsail under violent squall conditions.
This brings the CEO back and the result is "broach city" (as the next
poster describes).

If you're pulling down the mainsail, wouldn't the sheet be hauled in so
that the crew can reach the boom in the first place?

As explained above, I would only dare to pull the mainsheet in just
enough to get the main off the spreaders while clawing the slides down
at the mast. In our williwaw adventure, I first pulled the luff down
far enough to secure the 3rd reef cringle at the tack and then started
bringing the boom in far enough to rerig the reef lines at the clew.
Under third reef and staysail we then finally turned back into the
squall in order not to lose more hard-won miles. Altogether, we
managed not to break a single batten or slide, let alone tear any
sails.


Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Likewise!

Henk Meuzelaar

Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.
2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.

I forget that many boats do not have all sail halyards led to cockpit
and going up onto the cabin top in a broach must be frightening. Sails
are cheap, life isnt, let em flog if necessary
Forget sillies who claim to eschew engine use. Boats have engines for
a reason, in danger, use it.

BTW, my old non-roller furling jib had a downhaul for just such
occasions for FL thunderstorms.
Would a downhaul led to the cockpit work for the main? With any force
on the main, it will not fall by itself but you can always muscle it
down unless it gets caught in the spreaders.

Mostly, I agree...

wrote in message
oups.com...
Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.
2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.

That's good if you can do it. Sometimes, the pressure is so great on the
jib, that I've found it impossible to furl or when furled doesn't furl the
whole way because the jib becomes wound too tight and runs out.

I forget that many boats do not have all sail halyards led to cockpit
and going up onto the cabin top in a broach must be frightening. Sails
are cheap, life isnt, let em flog if necessary
Forget sillies who claim to eschew engine use. Boats have engines for
a reason, in danger, use it.

Yes, but you need to be absolutely certain that lines are not in the water
of course.

BTW, my old non-roller furling jib had a downhaul for just such
occasions for FL thunderstorms.
Would a downhaul led to the cockpit work for the main? With any force
on the main, it will not fall by itself but you can always muscle it
down unless it gets caught in the spreaders.

Worked for my boat. If nothing else, it'll help. They're easy to rig.

wrote:
Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.

Throughout this thread no one has argumented anything else. No
disagreement here.

2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.

As soon as the vessel rights itself in the squall, with lots of sail
draped all over the place, it will start sailing in some direction or
other. The most immediate issue is therefo what point of sail are
you trying to steer and why??

Without a clear strategy at this juncture, all you are going to achieve
is to set yourself up for your next broach (as two posters have clearly
demonstrated in their stories).

A crucial question in this strategy is whether you are trying to
achieve proper sail balance for going upwind or for running off.

Any attempt to overly simplify the issues is just a prescription for
more threshing around.

Have fun,

Henk Meuzelaar

wrote:
Regardless of how it happened, assume it did.
1. Ease mainsheet to allow boat to begin to right itself.

Check.

2. Begin furling the jib (yes, it will furl on any point of sail).
while easing its sheets.


Important point "while easing sheets." The jib may well furl on any
point of sail, but if it is flogging wildly then it will furl badly or
not at all. Several times I have seen people roll up their jibs in hard
gusts, and the upper part of the sail will be a gnarled-up baggy bundle
instead of a neat roll. This causes a lot of drag and may still have
exposed edges flogging, which *will* damage the sail and may make the
boat much more difficult to control.



I forget that many boats do not have all sail halyards led to cockpit
and going up onto the cabin top in a broach must be frightening.

If you're smart enough to hang on, it may be safer than the cockpit.

... Sails
are cheap, life isnt, let em flog if necessary

I disagree strongly.
1- shredded sails are expensive
2- it increases the danger from the boat being out of control, and
hugely increases the risk of snagging some part of the sail or sheet on
either the rig, deck fitting, or crew.

Forget sillies who claim to eschew engine use. Boats have engines for
a reason, in danger, use it.

Except that you may get a line in the prop, or an air lock, or a slug of
crud from the tank, etc etc. It's funny how an engine that runs
perfectly under calm circumstances cannot be relied on when it's an
"emergency."

Generally, if one cannot keep one's head and *sail* the boat thru a
squall, taking proper measures and keeping the boat under control, then
relying on an engine to magically take over when the sails are too scary
& uncontrollable will not succeed.

This kind of thinking is one reason why I advocate learning to sail in
small responsive boats with no engine. One afternoon of sailing a 14
footer in 15 ~ 20 knot winds will teach you more about how to handle a
25+ footer in a squall than a decade of furling & motoring.


BTW, my old non-roller furling jib had a downhaul for just such
occasions for FL thunderstorms.
Would a downhaul led to the cockpit work for the main? With any force
on the main, it will not fall by itself but you can always muscle it
down unless it gets caught in the spreaders.


A downhaul can be a good thing. Rarely see them on mainsails but it can
certainly work. If you have properly rigged lazyjacks, they reduce the
odds of getting things caught in the spreaders, too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

DSK wrote:

A downhaul can be a good thing. Rarely see them on mainsails but it can
certainly work. If you have properly rigged lazyjacks, they reduce the
odds of getting things caught in the spreaders, too.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

A number of owners of my class of boat have rigged mainsail downhauls to
help in singlehanded sailing. I will be doing same when My main & jib
eturn from a local sailmaker.

On 2005-05-31, Flying Tadpole wrote:

I sail with arcane rigs, so some of what I do isn't
translatable. However, on both the light schooner and Lady
Kate the AS29, turning up into a bullet is a recipe for
capsize and swamping in the one, and knockdown in the other.
The light schooner (a boat requiring crew) as an open and low
boat would already be sailing with her lee rail down. A sharp
turn into the wind would knock her down further, assisted by a
powerful spade rudder tending to act as an elevator plane
because of the angle, both reinforcing the knockdown; also
stop her dead allowing the waves to take her over also.
Bearing away, turning downwind, brings the boat up to level
rather than heeled.

I'm trying to picture turning up producing more heeling force and
having difficulty. I've been sailing dinghies recently and if hit
by a gust, feathering up reduces the heeling force whilst bearing
away places more of the sail square on to the wind and increases
the heeling. How is the schooner different?

--
Andy Repton

Andy Repton wrote:
On 2005-05-31, Flying Tadpole wrote:

I sail with arcane rigs, so some of what I do isn't
translatable. However, on both the light schooner and Lady
Kate the AS29, turning up into a bullet is a recipe for
capsize and swamping in the one, and knockdown in the other.
The light schooner (a boat requiring crew) as an open and low
boat would already be sailing with her lee rail down. A sharp
turn into the wind would knock her down further, assisted by a
powerful spade rudder tending to act as an elevator plane
because of the angle, both reinforcing the knockdown; also
stop her dead allowing the waves to take her over also.
Bearing away, turning downwind, brings the boat up to level
rather than heeled.


I'm trying to picture turning up producing more heeling force and
having difficulty. I've been sailing dinghies recently and if hit
by a gust, feathering up reduces the heeling force whilst bearing
away places more of the sail square on to the wind and increases
the heeling. How is the schooner different?


First, we always sailed her as hard as possible, so anywhere
on the wind the lee rail would tend to be a few inches above
the water. Think "not much scope for error"

Second, the rudder is way aft, deep and powerful, pintle hung
and _not_ balanced, carrying over a quarter of the lateral
plane the daggerboard carries half-and-a-bit when heeled, and
the chine (sharpie hull) carries the rest. Think "lots of
water/pressure at the rudder"

Third, the boat, though half a ton with a two-up crew, is as
rapid in response to helm movement as a small dinghy and will
be travelling, in the circumstances described, well over hull
speed. 8-12 knots depending on where the wind is. Think "momentum"

Putting the helm down to round up, sets the rudder, on an
already heeling hull, acting like an elevator plane, heeling
the boat further as she starts spinnong ruound. At this
point, the lee rail cuts under...boat slows, and blows over
(or would, but we've probably let fly the sheets at this
point, of up to four sails.

Incidentally, the hull shape is sufficiently narrow for its
length _not_ to also suddenly transform the boat into a foul
mouthed broaching monster, which is what happens to most of
the trailable yachts in her sailing grounds.

The falling off when hit by a bullet is also a standard
catamaran trick, and we used it to the same advantage.
Bullet? Fall off, come more upright, pick up speed, come back
on course at higher speed. Really too much bullet? Ease the
sheet while doing so. Really, really too much bullet? Still
fall off to recover, then come to the wind while easing sheets
(staying as upright as possible) and heave to to reef.
Incidentally, the boat fore-reaches at about 2knots hove-to,
so in close proximity to obstacles, reefing is done as fast as
possible.

More info on the website, from memory
--
Flying Tadpole

-------------------------
http://www.flyingtadpole.com

In article .com,
wrote:

I was recently sailing in a 38' sloop rigged cruiser. Both the jib and
the main are the furling type.

I was caught off guard by a sudden 35 kt gust than pinned the sails
down hard. I fought to turn into the wind so that I can furl the
sails, but this was a real struggle, as the wind kept pushing the boat
out of irons and over on it's side. Unfortunately, the sails were not
reefed in the first place. Releasing the sheets helped ease the heel
angle, but caused a real mess as all the lines started whipping around
and getting tangled. Eventually, we managed to furl the sails, but it
was a real scare.

Any advice on what would have been the best way to handle that
situation?

Thanks,
Bob Bramble


I read the other posts to date and there's a lot of good stuff, albeit
confusing if you don't remember that all boats handle differently and
you have to deal with YOUR boat.

On a 50' charter boat in tradewind conditions, a squall with 35 knot
winds is sometimes best handled by heading down and surfing at fantastic
speeds. Letting the boat head up from a broad reach can *almost* toss
the "deck fluff" sunning on the foredeck overboard from the sudden heel.
(The Admiral and I were *not* amused.)

We've sailed 20-35 knots (gusting) in our little girl, though only on a
beam reach, and we were reefed, on the working jib and had prepared
otherwise. Was great fun.

But when surprised and overpressed, my first action is to ease the main
and feather toward the wind (NOT going head to wind, just luffing). If
things are still too hairy, I ease the jib or release and furl it. Main
flaps like crazy, but safety first, maintaining at least a bit of speed
for steerage.

Then, we have an option you don't: Release the main halyard and let the
main drop. Sloppy, but effective. You'll have to experiment with your
r/f main. Perhaps that's your first job, then crank in the wildly (but
intentionally) luffing jib.

If things REALLY have gone pear shaped, we just release the sheets and
let everything flog off to the side until we figure out what to do.
(maintain steerage!)

Heaving to with out boat is rarely possible. I got bit by motoring
through sheets twice, so rarely consider it until much later.

Of course, all this is improved with planning and by looking outside of
the boat. Most squalls can be seen coming IF you remember to look for
them every once in a while. Notice that there's often a different
quality of light well before squalls, sorta reddish even when the sun is
high. (Was reminded of that this afternoon.) ANY change gives a reason
to look up and around. A suddenly cooler breeze often evokes an
immediate call to strike sails. A dark band of clouds is not the only
warning.

And keep things neat, just in case. Your sheets should be ready to use,
and should not be be underfoot or intermingled.

You will have practiced your emergency procedures under benign
conditions, of course. Monday, the winds were right and no one was in
the way, so we sailed into the marina, engine ticking over but out of
gear. Got us applause as usual, but we don't do it to impress, we do it
for that time the engine died a couple of miles out and we had to sail
in with 15-20 behind too-big sails and just ahead of the REAL wind. Had
to gybe three times to get through the breakwaters and around the fuel
dock, but it wasn't that big a thing. Afterwards, we had a postmortem to
improve our technique. (Have more fuel in the tank!)

Getting caught off guard was about the middle of your chain of mistakes.
I suspect some of them won't happen next time. If you're like me, you'll
wake up some nights "dealing" with some emergency in your dreams.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/