In article ,
says...
Len wrote in news:9eaf72c3-93ef-4f82-a35f-
:

On 17 apr, 23:16, Larry wrote:

USE ONLY PURE DISTILLED, NOT DEMINERALIZED, WATER! *

I use water produced by my watermaker from drinking
water that also was produced by my watermaker.
When I put my TDS meter in it, it shows less than 100 ppm.
What do you think of that?

Len.


I'm not really sure RO water is chemically pure enough for battery
chemistry. Anything left through the membrane that reacts with acid will
eat the acid in the battery. Distilled water run through an activated
carbon column is so pure here it will not conduct electricity. Water is an
insulator. At a UHF TV station that's using water-cooled klystrons,
there's 18,500VDC on the collector boiling gallons/min of distilled water..
Current is minimal.

It would seem to me RO would pass dissolved metals the battery doesn't want
poured into it....but it's better than tap water, I suppose.

RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of
little use in generating fresh water from sea water.

Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure
as distilled water if the filter is operated properly.


Mark Borgerson

"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
g...
RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of
little use in generating fresh water from sea water.

Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure
as distilled water if the filter is operated properly.


Mark Borgerson



WRONG! Even the best membranes may pass up to 5% of heavy metal ions.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TFX-46WM6V7-1R&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&vie w=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_use rid=10&md5=aabc45cb84f81de69db133da6e5cf12c

This is far more than proper distilled water using heat and condensation.

Wilbur Hubbard

In article s.com,
llid says...
"Mark Borgerson" wrote in message
g...
RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of
little use in generating fresh water from sea water.

Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure
as distilled water if the filter is operated properly.


Mark Borgerson



WRONG! Even the best membranes may pass up to 5% of heavy metal ions.

I agree. I overstated the efficiency of RO filters. The efficiency
of RO filters depends a lot on the type of filter, the ionization state
of the metals and the feed pressure.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TFX-46WM6V7-1R&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&vie w=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_use rid=10&md5=aabc45cb84f81de69db133da6e5cf12c


To quote from this abstract:

"An experimental investigation was conducted to study the performance
of an aromatic polyamide (ES 20) ultra-low-pressure reverse osmosis
membrane (ULPROM) for separating divalent (Cu2+, Ni2+) and hexavalent
(Cr6+) heavy metals from bulk solution. The influence of operating
pressure, feed concentration, pH, and effect of other ions (Ca2+ and Mg2
+) on the ULPROM performance was studied. The investigation was
conducted for synthetic wastewater and wastewater from the heavy metal
industry. Experimental results show that the rejection increases with
increasing feed pressure, it is dependent on feed pH and is higher at
higher pH. Increasing concentration of other ions slightly decreased the
rejection of heavy metals. Generally, rejection of heavy metal is found
to be greater than 95% for the ULPROM tested, which suggests the
suitability of such membranes for industrial application for recovery of
heavy metal and reclaiming wastewater."

These ultra-low pressure filters are not the same as those used to
purify drinking water and the reference isn't talking about
making drinking water.

If you are purifying seawater for drinking, heavy metals are not
generally a problem, since they are generally in the parts per
million range or less in seawater.


This is far more than proper distilled water using heat and condensation.

Neither RO filters nor distillation are particularly effective in
removing metal ions if you then use metal pipes or containers for the
reulting water.

To get lab quality water generally requires double distillation
and deionization.

For drinking water made from seawater, RO filters may result in
a few parts per thousand of sodium and chlorine and a few hundred
parts per billion of heavier metals. This is probably comparable
to still that you will find on a boat---but the RO filter will
be a lot more energy efficient.


Mark Borgerson

Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

Neither RO filters nor distillation are particularly effective in
removing metal ions if you then use metal pipes or containers for the
reulting water.

To get lab quality water generally requires double distillation
and deionization.

For drinking water made from seawater, RO filters may result in
a few parts per thousand of sodium and chlorine and a few hundred
parts per billion of heavier metals. This is probably comparable
to still that you will find on a boat---but the RO filter will
be a lot more energy efficient.


Mark Borgerson



You don't need lab quality water for batteries, just water free of
anything that combines with sulphuric acid to form salts, using up the
acid in the cells. However, my water made with this:

http://www.waterwise.com/productcart...p?idproduct=24

I have two. They had a slew of bad clixon thermostats so I bought them
broken for nothing and repaired. The boiler seals are also bad. I
replaced the stupid seals with neoprene fuel hose made into a
"pressurizing O-ring" with a plastic nipple to hold the ends tight.
When the heat hits it, the air inside the hose expands and you can't get
the lid off before it cools...(c;]

Condensed in stainless steel tubing and collected through activated
carbon to eliminate distillates of mostly benzene and hexane, the water
will not conduct electricity at 2000VDC. The meter doesn't even wiggle.
The only thing in my lab report was a part per billion polycarbonate
from the collector. I store in glass.

You never had a better drink of water than I make....one drop at a time.



--
================================================== ==========
Larry

I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't
afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a
tree.

Any questions?

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:58:43 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

This is far more than proper distilled water using heat and condensation.

They used to make stills that ran off the exhaust heat from engine or
generator. They would give you several gallons of water for each
gallon of fuel burned. The evaporators on ships used to use the heat
from condensing water to boil more water at reduced pressure. They had
so called quadruple effect evaporators.

Casady

Richard Casady wrote in
:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:58:43 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

This is far more than proper distilled water using heat and condensation.

They used to make stills that ran off the exhaust heat from engine or
generator. They would give you several gallons of water for each
gallon of fuel burned. The evaporators on ships used to use the heat
from condensing water to boil more water at reduced pressure. They had
so called quadruple effect evaporators.

Casady


They also have vacuum evaporators. It takes lots less heat to make steam
in a vacuum. It's really too bad boats waste all that heat overboard
cooling the exhaust with seawater and just dumping it, instead of
converting it to steam and condensing drinking water.

I suspect they think the boaters too lazy to operate such a system that
requires constant flushing and manual maintenance, which it does.



--
================================================== ==========
Larry

I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't
afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a
tree.

Any questions?

Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of
little use in generating fresh water from sea water.

Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure
as distilled water if the filter is operated properly.


Mark Borgerson



Then were does the 100ppm dissolved solids come from?

RO will NEVER be as pure as distilled water....



--
================================================== ==========
Larry

I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't
afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a
tree.

Any questions?

In article ,
says...
Mark Borgerson wrote in
g:

RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of
little use in generating fresh water from sea water.

Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure
as distilled water if the filter is operated properly.


Mark Borgerson



Then were does the 100ppm dissolved solids come from?

RO will NEVER be as pure as distilled water....

Not at the laboratory still level, for sure. But it compares
well to large-scale distillation plants used to produce
drinking water:

http://www.oas.org/dsd/publications/...ea59e/ch21.htm

"Desalination of seawater is a relatively expensive method of obtaining
freshwater. The MSF system has proved to be a very efficient system,
when properly maintained. It produces high quality product water
(between 2 and 150 mg/1 of total dissolved solids at the plant in
Curaçao); TDS contents of less than 10 mg/1 have been reported from the
VC plant in Chile. Because the water is boiled, the risk of bacterial or
pathogenic virus contamination of the product water is minimal. "


Shipboard evaporators also have other problems: the resulting water
needs pH adjustment and and treatment to kill bacteria, since the
water is often distilled at only 60 deg. C.

http://www.facetinternational.net/potabilizer.htm

Mark Borgerson

Mark Borgerson wrote in
:

Shipboard evaporators also have other problems: the resulting water
needs pH adjustment and and treatment to kill bacteria, since the
water is often distilled at only 60 deg. C.


RO sounds great and I know you love yours....but, alas, there's a long
trail of problems related to RO its supporters, and especially
manufacturers and dealers, don't like to talk about.

Too many people forget about the bacteria piled up against the membrane at
high pressure. When that bacteria breaks under pressure, its toxins DO
pass through the membrane making your RO love boat cruise much more
interesting, but lots less fun, than you'd planned.

If you put "reverse osmosis toxins" into Google, the first 9 pages of
findings are all ads for RO systems, or "reports", disguised RO ads from
someone hawking RO products. Like reading a boat magazine, there's never a
discouraging word. If there are bad reports not from the industry, they
have them well buried in bull**** Google finds.

It's very hard to get unspoiled information from neutral sources.....

--
================================================== ==========
Larry

I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't
afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a
tree.

Any questions?

In article ,
says...
Mark Borgerson wrote in
:

Shipboard evaporators also have other problems: the resulting water
needs pH adjustment and and treatment to kill bacteria, since the
water is often distilled at only 60 deg. C.


RO sounds great and I know you love yours....but, alas, there's a long
trail of problems related to RO its supporters, and especially
manufacturers and dealers, don't like to talk about.

I don't have a boat large enough to need an RO filter---in fact
I don't have a boat at all since I donated my Windrose 18 to the
sea scouts.

I've used RO filters to generate ultra-pure water for the testing
of optical oceanographic instruments. However, we were more concerned
with particulates than with a few ppm of dissolved salts. (Scattering
makes PPB of solid particles detectable, but dissolved minerals don't
really show up). I also maintain a GE home RO system that generates
about 18l per day that is in my wife's greenhouse. It runs off the
pressure from our well. A few ppm of salts and bacterial residue
aren't much of a problem there.

Too many people forget about the bacteria piled up against the membrane at
high pressure. When that bacteria breaks under pressure, its toxins DO
pass through the membrane making your RO love boat cruise much more
interesting, but lots less fun, than you'd planned.

We had to clean our RO filters with a pretty strong peroxide solution
a few times per month to flush the junk off the filters. I suspect
that filters for seawater may need cleaning even more often, as the
lab was starting with tap water passed through a 1-micron filter.

Why do you assume that the materials passing through the filter
are toxins? Perhaps they're nutritional carbohydrates? Such
assumptions and wording seem to show a bias against RO filters
in your response. In any case, you probably get a good dose of
the same 'toxins' in your city drinking water after the chlorination
has killed the bacteria.

If you put "reverse osmosis toxins" into Google, the first 9 pages of
findings are all ads for RO systems, or "reports", disguised RO ads from
someone hawking RO products. Like reading a boat magazine, there's never a
discouraging word. If there are bad reports not from the industry, they
have them well buried in bull**** Google finds.

It's very hard to get unspoiled information from neutral sources.....

You need to be a bit smarter in your searches,then. I Googled

"RO filter bacterial accumulation"

and found this in the first link:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...B6TFX-42KDG2J-
N&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view =c&_acct=C000050221
&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5
=b78fb8fa60f8aef434d57d032c5d96df

"No doubt that biofouling is one of the most serious problems associated
with the RO membrane systems which has not yet been effectively solved."



OTOH, if you get your ship's water from flash distillation, you have
to worry about contamination from volatile organics. For this reason,
many ships don't start producing water until they get 12 miles offshore.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2372744/...oard-Drinking-
Water-Chemical-Contaminants


Mark Borgerson