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#11
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:58:43 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote: This is far more than proper distilled water using heat and condensation. They used to make stills that ran off the exhaust heat from engine or generator. They would give you several gallons of water for each gallon of fuel burned. The evaporators on ships used to use the heat from condensing water to boil more water at reduced pressure. They had so called quadruple effect evaporators. Casady |
#12
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
Mark Borgerson wrote in
g: RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of little use in generating fresh water from sea water. Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure as distilled water if the filter is operated properly. Mark Borgerson Then were does the 100ppm dissolved solids come from? RO will NEVER be as pure as distilled water.... -- ================================================== ========== Larry I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a tree. Any questions? |
#13
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
Mark Borgerson wrote in
g: Neither RO filters nor distillation are particularly effective in removing metal ions if you then use metal pipes or containers for the reulting water. To get lab quality water generally requires double distillation and deionization. For drinking water made from seawater, RO filters may result in a few parts per thousand of sodium and chlorine and a few hundred parts per billion of heavier metals. This is probably comparable to still that you will find on a boat---but the RO filter will be a lot more energy efficient. Mark Borgerson You don't need lab quality water for batteries, just water free of anything that combines with sulphuric acid to form salts, using up the acid in the cells. However, my water made with this: http://www.waterwise.com/productcart...p?idproduct=24 I have two. They had a slew of bad clixon thermostats so I bought them broken for nothing and repaired. The boiler seals are also bad. I replaced the stupid seals with neoprene fuel hose made into a "pressurizing O-ring" with a plastic nipple to hold the ends tight. When the heat hits it, the air inside the hose expands and you can't get the lid off before it cools...(c;] Condensed in stainless steel tubing and collected through activated carbon to eliminate distillates of mostly benzene and hexane, the water will not conduct electricity at 2000VDC. The meter doesn't even wiggle. The only thing in my lab report was a part per billion polycarbonate from the collector. I store in glass. You never had a better drink of water than I make....one drop at a time. -- ================================================== ========== Larry I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a tree. Any questions? |
#14
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
Richard Casady wrote in
: On Sat, 18 Apr 2009 21:58:43 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard" wrote: This is far more than proper distilled water using heat and condensation. They used to make stills that ran off the exhaust heat from engine or generator. They would give you several gallons of water for each gallon of fuel burned. The evaporators on ships used to use the heat from condensing water to boil more water at reduced pressure. They had so called quadruple effect evaporators. Casady They also have vacuum evaporators. It takes lots less heat to make steam in a vacuum. It's really too bad boats waste all that heat overboard cooling the exhaust with seawater and just dumping it, instead of converting it to steam and condensing drinking water. I suspect they think the boaters too lazy to operate such a system that requires constant flushing and manual maintenance, which it does. -- ================================================== ========== Larry I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a tree. Any questions? |
#15
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
In article ,
says... Mark Borgerson wrote in g: RO filters DO NOT pass dissolved metals. If they did they would be of little use in generating fresh water from sea water. Unless you use a laboratory-quality still, RO water will be as pure as distilled water if the filter is operated properly. Mark Borgerson Then were does the 100ppm dissolved solids come from? RO will NEVER be as pure as distilled water.... Not at the laboratory still level, for sure. But it compares well to large-scale distillation plants used to produce drinking water: http://www.oas.org/dsd/publications/...ea59e/ch21.htm "Desalination of seawater is a relatively expensive method of obtaining freshwater. The MSF system has proved to be a very efficient system, when properly maintained. It produces high quality product water (between 2 and 150 mg/1 of total dissolved solids at the plant in Curaçao); TDS contents of less than 10 mg/1 have been reported from the VC plant in Chile. Because the water is boiled, the risk of bacterial or pathogenic virus contamination of the product water is minimal. " Shipboard evaporators also have other problems: the resulting water needs pH adjustment and and treatment to kill bacteria, since the water is often distilled at only 60 deg. C. http://www.facetinternational.net/potabilizer.htm Mark Borgerson |
#16
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
Mark Borgerson wrote in
: Shipboard evaporators also have other problems: the resulting water needs pH adjustment and and treatment to kill bacteria, since the water is often distilled at only 60 deg. C. RO sounds great and I know you love yours....but, alas, there's a long trail of problems related to RO its supporters, and especially manufacturers and dealers, don't like to talk about. Too many people forget about the bacteria piled up against the membrane at high pressure. When that bacteria breaks under pressure, its toxins DO pass through the membrane making your RO love boat cruise much more interesting, but lots less fun, than you'd planned. If you put "reverse osmosis toxins" into Google, the first 9 pages of findings are all ads for RO systems, or "reports", disguised RO ads from someone hawking RO products. Like reading a boat magazine, there's never a discouraging word. If there are bad reports not from the industry, they have them well buried in bull**** Google finds. It's very hard to get unspoiled information from neutral sources..... -- ================================================== ========== Larry I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a tree. Any questions? |
#18
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
Mark Borgerson wrote in
g: Why do you assume that the materials passing through the filter are toxins? Perhaps they're nutritional carbohydrates? Such assumptions and wording seem to show a bias against RO filters in your response. In any case, you probably get a good dose of the same 'toxins' in your city drinking water after the chlorination has killed the bacteria. AS it was explained to me, these boat RO systems, to be small, use very high pressure on the membrane, as opposed to large commercial systems like a public utility would use in a purification plant at low pressure. This high pressure traps the bacteria against the membrane, where I suppose it's like his little head is stuck in a hole his body can't fit through, a crude cartoon-of-the-mind's-eye. Now trapped in a high pressure environment, at some point, the bacteria explodes, releasing its internal load of really small toxins onto the surface of the membrane where it can, because of its tiny size crude molecules pass through the membrane with the H2O, contaminating the outlet water. The key, I'm told, is the high pressure, which rips many biologicals apart into tiny pieces. I don't see why this is not a possible scenario and a source of possible sickness for the drinkers. We're still talking about FILTRATION. Anything small in molecular size passes through because the holes have to be big enough for water to pass through in large quantities. There are a lot of such molecules. Water is a fairly large molecule because of its oxygen atom's atomic number. I just don't think it's the holy grail the sales brochures profess it to be. Dissent against the RO community is treated the same way as someone who wonders how 6,000,000 bodies in Nazi concentration camps fit in such a tiny space...to be attacked at all costs! -- ================================================== ========== Larry I've decided to worship Thor. My god has a hammer and isn't afraid to use it. Your god is a pacifist who got nailed to a tree. Any questions? |
#19
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
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#20
posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Batteries, again, sorry
Larry, I usually agree with your posts, but I have to respectfully
disagree with these about RO water. I've been "making" and drinking RO water for several years with no problems nor any ill effects. I have no affliation with any RO watermaker company other than as a customer. On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 04:16:01 +0000, Larry wrote: AS it was explained to me, these boat RO systems, to be small, use very high pressure on the membrane, as opposed to large commercial systems like a public utility would use in a purification plant at low pressure. Incorrect. The reason high pressure is used is because the salt concentration of seawater results in an osmotic pressure of about 800 psi. Brackish water generally ranges between 200 and 400 psi. Home RO systems (and brackish water systems) use different membranes and lower presures - 30 - 65 psi for home, freshwater systems. Same for large commercial _freshwater_ plants; sal****er ones use the higher pressure with seawater membranes. This high pressure traps the bacteria against the membrane, where I suppose it's like his little head is stuck in a hole his body can't fit through, a crude cartoon-of-the-mind's-eye. Never heard of that. I guess it could happen if feed water flow were insufficient. Generally a system is set up for 10% recovery. That is feedwater flow is 10 times freshwater output. 60 GPH feed to get out 6 GPH of potable water. So 90% of the feed water is rushing through the system, in one end and out the other. This flow rate, along with the design of the housing and membrane result in optimum "washing" of the membrane surface. I think you may be under the impression that the "other end" is closed off and all the water is forced though the membrane. Not so. Shutting down with seawater in the system, then not running it for too long, will result in bacterial growth and eventual "plugging" of the membrane. The result is reduced product water flow with no "pieces" of bacteria included. Now trapped in a high pressure environment, at some point, the bacteria explodes, releasing its internal load of really small toxins onto the surface of the membrane where it can, because of its tiny size crude molecules pass through the membrane with the H2O, contaminating the outlet water. The key, I'm told, is the high pressure, which rips many biologicals apart into tiny pieces. I don't see why this is not a possible scenario and a source of possible sickness for the drinkers. Doesn't happen. The bacteria normally is not "trapped". The little bugger is spun around and bounced around, then spit out of the reject line. BTW, the poor little creature would implode, not explode. The nearest thing to your scenerio occurs right at startup and lasts at most 5 minutes. There will be a certain amount of "smelly stuff" in the water, mostly hydrogen sulfide. That "rotten egg" smell. Running enough product water, about a gallon, through the system just before shutting down minimizes this. This is because seawater (or river water) contains organic material: plankton, seaweeds and flotsam of all types. After a watermaker has been turned off, this material soon begins to decompose, both in the prefilters and the membrane housings. As it does, it breaks down into a number of chemicals composed of smaller molecules. Some of these molecules are small enough to pass through the watermaker membrane along with the product water. Again, all this is flushed out after a few minutes. It's simply a matter of rejecting the first few minutes of product water. Rick Morel S/V Valkyrie http://www.morelr.com/valkyrie |
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