Jonathan wrote in message ...
I am about to embark on building a 10 ft stitch and glue dinghy, a Dudly
Dix, Argie 10.

I would think this has been asked, but so far I haven't found it. Can I
use those plastic self cinching cable ties to hold the panels together
until I glass them? I would think they would sand off more smoothly
than wire?

Any thoughts?

Jonathan

Thousands of our designs were built with plastic ties. They are easy
to adjust, don't hurt your fingers, can be left in the resin and
sanded down.
See pictures of construction with plastic ties in our builders
galleries:
http://forums.bateau2.com/gallery/

I think that Devlin abandonned copper wire for plastic ties.

It is not a very important decision anyway: I have used duct tape too,
works well on small hulls with smooth bending.

Jacques from bateau.com

Rick Tyler wrote in message . ..
On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:

"Evan Gatehouse" wrote

Yes you can [use cable ties for S&G boats].

With all due respect to Evan I have another opinion to share. You can
use plastic ties but don't. Go to home depot or such and get some 7
strand copper ground wire, or a couple of packages of 18 guage copper
wire, cut it into 4" pieces and fold them over so they look like "U"
nails.
(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
barbed wire or blackberry vines.

Yeah, I like pain.. I also wait till mid July to do all my sheathing
Really, I must admit to using many things along the road. My
philosophy with ties is to use as few as possible and a little masking
tape where the strong hold is not needed. I tried also the hot glue
tabs but if you really hate the copper you can always heat the wire
and pull it out after the epoxy has set. The key is to use what works
for you, they are only temporary attachments.

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty



Who makes better trucks: Chevy, Ford, Dodge, or Toyota? Ask four
people, get four answers. All of them will get the job done. Same
with stitches.

Jacques Merten's tech support web site has some good "how to" articles
for beginners. Check he http://bateau2.com/content/section/5/28/.

Have fun. You can't build just one!

- Rick Tyler

Backyard Renegade wrote:
Rick Tyler wrote in message . ..

On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:


(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
snip.......

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty


I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?

The delay factors would include waiting for epoxy to cure ...you'd be
surprised at how many times you have to do something, then wait wait. With
experience, you can figure out how to order steps so you can do a nice job
and do things wet-on-wet. Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing
around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it
carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera.
Most boats cannot be built in 2 weeks, unless it's very simple and you have
some knowledge about what you are doing, and everything is already acquired
and ready to go. The reason that Scotty mentioned skin on frame is because
you can basically work non-stop as time and energy permits. No waiting on
curing except when you are done, you generally must wait for sealants to
cure before painting. That depends on which you select.

--
http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass -- My 22' Tolman Skiff project


..
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...


Backyard Renegade wrote:
Rick Tyler wrote in message
. ..

On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:


(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
snip.......

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty


I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?

Jonathan ) writes:

I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

I don't know that it would take quite that long, but you can see under
"Boats" on my website (address below) a example of a project plan I did
for a small boat with Microsoft Project 97.


Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

getting the hull lined up in all 3 dimensions is one.
getting things cut out and put together right way 'round and right side up is
another. (you are working at least part of the time on an upside down boat)

the usual estimate is half the time for the plywood, the other half for
the rest (gunwales, seats, oarlocks, etc.), and then the sailing rig is
extra if you want to sail the boat. seems all of the little pieces have
to be cut at some angle other than 90 degress to fit the curved hull.

I'd suggest getting the basic hull complete and then finishing the rest
off as you use the boat. I'm still making changes to boats I built 4 years
ago.


As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?


still Harold Payson can cut out and build a 16 foot Windsprint
"instant" sailboat hull in one afternoon with the help of an assistant.
screw and glue construction is faster because the screws hold everything
togther while the glue cures so you can keep right on working without
having to stop a day and wait for the glue to harden. Payson used nails.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Ah....well.While assembling a dinghy from sheets of plywood is a new
endeavor, I have been using epoxy and it's many additives for 15 years
or so, using about a gallon a year in different applications on the job.
As a carpenter/construction manager I've found many applications for its
gap filling and adhesive qualities, both in work on boats and on more
pedestrian projects.

I do have questions like: do I want to assemble the two sides of the
bottom together, then attach the sides, or do I want to assemble the two
halves of the boat and put them together down the middle?

The designer provided layouts with a very efficient utilization of the
plywood, something that strikes me as possibly taking a lot of time to
figure out otherwise. One of the sheets says to make two sets (it is the
bottom halves and the sides) I am inclined to lay out one sheet, cut it
out, then trace the second set? as opposed to the time taken to lay out
the second one again, plotting each of the curves again.....any thought?

I have every thing I need, except for the mast, boom and a gooseneck
for the boom...

Still, it is a boat, which has it's own force field of surprises.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Jonathan




Brian D wrote:
The delay factors would include waiting for epoxy to cure ...you'd be
surprised at how many times you have to do something, then wait wait. With
experience, you can figure out how to order steps so you can do a nice job
and do things wet-on-wet. Also, beginners tend to spend more time futzing
around with getting the right amount of thickener in the epoxy, applying it
carefully, trying to get fiberglass to work the way you expected etcetera.
Most boats cannot be built in 2 weeks, unless it's very simple and you have
some knowledge about what you are doing, and everything is already acquired
and ready to go. The reason that Scotty mentioned skin on frame is because
you can basically work non-stop as time and energy permits. No waiting on
curing except when you are done, you generally must wait for sealants to
cure before painting. That depends on which you select.

On the two boats I've built, I've used the cable ties. They don't bond well with epoxy so can generally remove them with pliers after epoxy as set
up. Also, if they do break and get left in the epoxy, they sand away into dust....


paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers

Jonathan wrote in message ...
Backyard Renegade wrote:
Rick Tyler wrote in message . ..

On 24 Jun 2004 05:34:49 -0700, (Backyard
Renegade) wrote:


(snip)

Scotty's several dozen S&G boats ahead of me, but I think copper sucks
for stitching boats together. I use hefty cable ties, and when I need
to loosen one up, I do what Scotty says -- I snip them off and put in
a new one. I find that copper either breaks when I twist it with
pliers, or, if I use thick wire, pulls out of the plywood. It also
stabs me in the fingers so often I feel like I've been playing with
snip.......

Actually since reading his other post about wanting to build the boat
in two weeks with his daughter, I would have suggested a skin
(plywood) on frame boat like a small pointy skiff or something anyway.
A noobie is not going to build a S+T in two weeks in most cases...
Scotty


I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?


Call me over the weekend, my number is on my website, smallboats.com
Scotty, I will be here today (6/26/04) most of the day and tomorrow...
never call me before 10am...

Jonathan wrote in message

I'm curious as to why you might think that? (That it will take more
than two dedicated weeks)

Actually I am more curious as to what pitfalls you see me stumbling into
that i can't see,( still having the blissful veil of ignorance).

As I think about it, there is the obvious, i.e. scheduling boat work is
best accomplished by estimating the time required, then multiplying by
2.5, so that you will only be short by 30% of your estimate

but are there any common pitfalls that I might avoid with a few
suggestions/pointers by others?

Hey I just found this for another guy and though of you.
http://www.microcruising.com/ding1.htm
Not trying to be a wiseass here, better to shoot a little low and be
successful, than to chew off more than you can chew and fail.
This boat would allow more input from your daughter and you can take
your time and finish it up easy, maybe even time for here to add her
own paint scheme She will not get bored and you will not get left at
the end of vacation with a half finished project and a dissappointed
family.
The fact is, it will not be the last boat you build, it's just how
this addiciton goes, you can still build a nice s+t in your spare time
over the summer or fall. No reason not to cut your teeth with a simple
and almost guaranteed successful first build..
Scotty

On 26 Jun 2004 11:29:58 GMT, (William R.
Watt) wrote:

the usual estimate is half the time for the plywood, the other half for
the rest (gunwales, seats, oarlocks, etc.), and then the sailing rig is
extra if you want to sail the boat. seems all of the little pieces have
to be cut at some angle other than 90 degress to fit the curved hull.

You know, I really tried not to write this, but demons possessed me.

Acquiring materials: 1/4 time
Cleaning the shop: 1/4 time
Measuring and cutting: 1/4 time
Assembling the hull, removing mistakes, and assembling again: 1/2 time
Acquiring, fitting, and installing all the fiddly bits: 1/2 time
Sanding: 1-1/2 times
Finishing, sanding, and finishing: 1 time
Allowance for extra sanding: 1 time

You can see that any boat takes 5.25 times longer to build.

- Rick Tyler

--
"Ignorant voracity -- a wingless vulture -- can soar only into the
depths of ignominy." Patrick O'Brian