"Capt. Rob" wrote:
I said
we were making 6 knots VMG to windward and you wrongly assumed that
this meant we were beating. Can the 35s5 make 6 knots of VMG to
windward, which is ANY POS above a beam reach. How about 45%? Hmmmmjm?
Better have another look at the video and try to look at the trim of
the sails.

Bob, would kindly go out on the street and see if you find someone with
a big stick to beat you soundly about the head? Perhaps then you will
be able to grasp the concept that "VMG to windward" is the vector
component of your vessels velocity that points directly upwind of your
vessel. It is not a point of sail. It reaches a maximum somewhere around
hard on the wind for most boats. As you fall of, your speed will
increase, but the rate at which your boat is moving to windward becomes
less and less until you reach a broad reach, when the wind is on your
beam and leeway is causing your boat to move downwind, at that point,
even though your boat may be doing 10 knots, your "VMG to windward"
becomes negative. Hope that's clear.

Where's Jax when you need him?

Cheers
Marty

There's no requirement for an anchor. But, if there were, it would have to
be chrome.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
"Capt. Rob" wrote:


Well, now we're getting somewhere. My boat has the AC, but she's
currently stripped out for the end of season cleaning. No water in the
tanks, gear and even the anchor removed.


Hold on there! Is it not a USCG requirement that a vessel of your size
carry an anchor? It's certainly a Canadia Coast Guard requirment.

Cheers
Marty
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katy wrote:

DSK wrote:
??? How can a man fish so well that lives in Colorado?
???
??
?
? Gilligan wrote:
?? The fish here are in small rivers. Simply stick a shotgun barrel into
?? the water, pull trigger.
?
? Phooey!
? MANLY men use bayonets!
?
? DSK
?
...and here I thought they tickled trout....

That's for Scotsmen, purportedly they're too cheap to buy tackle! ;-)

Cheers
Marty

Martin Baxter wrote:
katy wrote:
DSK wrote:
??? How can a man fish so well that lives in Colorado?
???
??
?
? Gilligan wrote:
?? The fish here are in small rivers. Simply stick a shotgun barrel into
?? the water, pull trigger.
?
? Phooey!
? MANLY men use bayonets!
?
? DSK
?
...and here I thought they tickled trout....

That's for Scotsmen, purportedly they're too cheap to buy tackle! ;-)

Cheers
Marty
Yes...but they are the manliest men around....nothing better than Sean
Connery in a kilt....

Capt. Rob wrote:
Never did I say I was hard on the wind or beating, which is why it's
totally believable that I topped the polars for VMG on that POS.

Wrong - this is exactly why its totally impossible that you VMG to
Windward was better than optimal.


You're still going under the assumption that the polars remain current.
Most people would agree that polars are a starting point.

Wrong. I'll grant you that polars have been refined upward, mainly
because new hi-tech sails outperform the old assumptions. But polars
made now are quite accurate for todays boats. Do you really think
todays designers are off by 15% on their speed predictions?

Once again "windward" does not suggest that I was clawing my way
upwind. As I said we were NOT beating.

All the more reason why your VMG to Windward could not have been that
high. Are you saying that beating to windward is not the best way to
go to windward, a close reach is better? (Actually, that's true on my
boat, but that's why my optimal VMG is 50 degrees in light air,
instead of 40.)

Actually he's claimed he beats his polars upwind with his recut main by
about 10%. But he also thinks the original polars were far to
conservative. Who's to say the same isn't true for the 35s5?

Me. And I thought you said you had old sails.

Actually, my argument hinges on the fact that the polars of almost
every boat your size has an optimal VMG to Windward of well under 6
knots. Further, you claimed that you weren't even going upward, that
you weren't hard on the wind.

Nope, as I already established windward does not always mean hard on
the wind. It's ANY POS above a beam reach.

And yet you fail to grasp that when you sail lower than the "optimal
point" your VMG to Windward goes down. What part of not sailing at
the "optimal point" do you not understand?

....


Is a Garmin handheld inferior to my charting GPS??? Who knew?


Yes, but the subtlety of this you will not understand. The GPS by
itself does not know where the wind is, and therefore cannot report
the VMG with respect to the wind direction. Thus, when your friend's
GPS displayed VMG, it was not VMG to Windward. If however, you have
an integrated system, then the wind direction is known, and a pretty
fair guess of the true VMG can be computed.



No. Its not an exaggeration, its called basic math. At 5 knots
you're doing 12 minutes per mile, or 720 seconds. At 6 knots, that's
600 seconds per mile. That's a difference of 120 second per mile,
which translates directly into 120 points on the PHRF rating. Maybe
its a bit less if you really get 5.2 knots, but its still up near 100
points.

All based on your still solid assumption that we were at 35 degress or
something like that...which we were not.

Nope. I made no such assumption. I only might have said that the
best VMG you could obtain was at about 40 degree, if you were sailing
lower than that your VMG to Windward would fall off.

You've failed to make any
argument at all because I'm not claiming 6 knots at 35 degrees. I said
we were making 6 knots VMG to windward and you wrongly assumed that
this meant we were beating.

Nope. I made no assumption. The real basis for my claim is that I
don't think your boat, without new sails and a racing crew, could
achieve 6 knots VMG to Windward under any circumstance.

Can the 35s5 make 6 knots of VMG to
windward, which is ANY POS above a beam reach. How about 45%? Hmmmmjm?

Nope. In fact, you'd have a much better shot of doing it at 38-40
degrees.

Better have another look at the video and try to look at the trim of
the sails.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RivCUMzy4xc

At 45 degrees, you'd have to be doing 8.6 knots (actually 9 knots,
including leeway) to have a VMG to Windward of 6 knots.

I know 9 knots. I often sail at 9 knots. And you weren't doing 9 knots.


FYI, when beating, the genny is sheeted in well inside the lifelines.

So you were footed well off. How much do you figure - 50 degrees? 55
degrees?



So what you're saying is that a quality skipper can make a Westsail
32
go upwind faster, that is, get better boat speed, than an average
skipper on a 35s5.


Nope....the Westsail is far more locked into it's performance limits
than a performance boat.

So lets look at it the other way - are you claiming you can go upwind
as fast as a Frers 45, or a Swan 51?

BTW, do you know what a 12-meter polar looks like? It says that the
optimal VMG to windward is about 5.5 knots, at about 42 degrees in 14
knots wind.



It can stay close because in fact the differences are pretty small,
only a few tenths. So when you sail nearby you can deceive yourself
into thinking you're going almost as fast.

I've sailed side by side with a 36.7, Jeff. It's faster upwind, but not
in the way that my 35s5 is faster than a Catalina 36 upwind. Small
differences that matter more for racers.


Isn't that just what I said?


So who's the liar?

You are. I never mentioned my boat in the comparison with the 35s5. You
said that I did, The E35 is rated at 135 here. Do you think Bart's
freind is literally sailing circles around Beneteau's, Jeff?

I don't know about that. I do know that you said "Any First (which I
assume includes yours) would toast an Ericson 35." Since the ratings
are only a few points different, I don't think "toast" is the correct
verb. Especially when you're claiming that a good helmsman can
suddenly make a difference of 100 points!


Actually, we all assumed he was talking about the sailing ability of
Benny owners, but you seemed to have missed that.

Oh, so you believe THAT as well? I see. Sailors around here don't
usually worry about such things.

But what about you?


Actually, if you knew anything, you'd understand that the Nonsuch
rig
is quite adjustable. Why don't you explain to us how often you adjust
your outhaul or topping lift while underway?

Is that how Nonsuch promoted it's boats?

Actually, yes. Though it may not have been part of the original
design priority. The adjustable rig was actually a bit of a
breakthrough in wishbone technology. I routinely did major sail shape
adjustments while underway, sometimes several times an hour. Have
you done any this year? How often do you change the outhaul?

Do you know who Anthony
Serling is and how is Nonsuch sank in the early 90's crossing the
Atlantic? He's a good friend of mine.

The only sinking I've heard about involved an owner who panicked and
started throwing gear overboard, including his hatch boards. There
was also a dismasted N30 that was abandoned and found a year later
being used as a fishing boat in the Caribbean, having drifted over a
thousand miles.


Perhaps I should be more explicit: The mark has to be directly to
windward. Not slightly to windward of your centerline. There is a
huge difference.

Agreed. I'm giving you the bouy location to best of my ability. I was
not standing behind the pedestal to line up the mark.

Then your understanding is faulty. But, you haven't been very
reliable in the past.


And one more time you're claiming that you weren't even close to the
wind, you weren't sheeted in, and yet you were going upwind faster
than the polars predict!

About .5 knot faster than what's shown on the polars

So what was it, directly upwind or 10 degrees off the bow?

In clip #2 it's directly to windward. Do you know what that means?

I know what it means. Do you?

And why did you insist it was off the bow?:

"So let's get this straight, Jeff. We're sailing upwind, but certainly
not beating. Our knotmeter is showing over seven knots nudging near 8
at times. We have a mark set on the GPS about a mile off and we're on
starboard tack (again, for example). Now, the mark is about 10
degrees off our starboard bow. GPS is reporting our VMG fluctuating
between 5.6 and 6.1 knots as we close on the mark."

Are you sure this mark was actually attached to the bottom?


Nor was it far away.

It was NOT far away and THERE you have a bone to seriously pick, but
nowhere else since I never said we were beating.

If it was really close than your whole argument is bogus. It was to
be at least far enough away so that the angle doesn't change during a
reasonable measuring period, say one minute. Since you're doing about
200 yards a minute, if you're within a quarter mile there's no way it
can be used to determine the VMG to Windward.

We're probably just below what most folks would call a close reach in
clip #2. VMG was .5 faster than reported by the French magazine and
that was in the early 90's with stock sails.

Just below a close reach would be about 60 degrees off the true wind.
So are you now saying you were doing 12 knots through the water?

I know 12 knots. I sail at 12 knots. And you weren't doing 12 knots.

Wrong - this is exactly why its totally impossible that you VMG to
Windward was better than optimal.


And yet your next comment admits that older polars could be off.


But polars
made now are quite accurate for todays boats. Do you really think
todays designers are off by 15% on their speed predictions?


Sure they could, but mine are from 1988, Jeff. Could the polars be
conservative or just off, combined with other modern advantages? When
they tested Hull #1 how many people were on board? Did they have the
rig tunes right. Now it's well known that the 35s5 has a hard-to-tune
rig. Did they get it right...all of it?


All the more reason why your VMG to Windward could not have been
that
high. Are you saying that beating to windward is not the best way to
go to windward

It depends where you're headed, Jeff. VMG to windward optimal is WHAT
on my boat, Jeff....make a guess.


Me. And I thought you said you had old sails.


My old sails still have some good shape left. They are delaminating and
won't last, but they're not blown the way dacron would be. Sadly, they
can't be saved.


And yet you fail to grasp that when you sail lower than the "optimal

point" your VMG to Windward goes down. What part of not sailing at
the "optimal point" do you not understand?

VMG to a mark is exactly that, Jeff. Our VMG to our windward mark was 6
knots.


Yes, but the subtlety of this you will not understand.


Nonsense. Garmin themselves reports that handheld GPS units give up no
accuracy to larger units so long as they have good contact.

The GPS by
itself does not know where the wind is, and therefore cannot report
the VMG with respect to the wind direction.

I have wind instruments, Jeff.


Thus, when your friend's
GPS displayed VMG, it was not VMG to Windward.

I have wind instruments, Jeff.


If however, you have
an integrated system, then the wind direction is known, and a pretty
fair guess of the true VMG can be computed.


Yes.


Nope. I made no such assumption. I only might have said that the
best VMG you could obtain was at about 40 degree, if you were sailing
lower than that your VMG to Windward would fall off.

Jeff, listen carefully. CAREFULLY. Our VMG to the WINWARD MARK was 6
knots. Do you understand that this is correct terminology even on a
reach?


At 45 degrees, you'd have to be doing 8.6 knots (actually 9 knots,
including leeway) to have a VMG to Windward of 6 knots.

Jeff, we topped 8 knots a few times. The 1st clip I posted was 7.2 to
7.5. We went faster with some trimming.
I don't think we hit 9 knots. I've been aboard this boat with a crew in
Florida and topped 10 knots and I know what THAT felt like. But I think
the video shows we're moving pretty fast. We spent a lot of time
between 7 and 8 knots.


So you were footed well off. How much do you figure - 50 degrees?
55
degrees?

That's a good question. I could not tell you with any acuraccy for this
discussion.


So lets look at it the other way - are you claiming you can go
upwind
as fast as a Frers 45, or a Swan 51?

Nope.


BTW, do you know what a 12-meter polar looks like? It says that the

optimal VMG to windward is about 5.5 knots, at about 42 degrees in 14
knots wind.

We were not in 14 knots of wind. Do you think that those 12 meter
polars are also carved in stone?


Isn't that just what I said?


Yep, but I'm trying to keep you entertained.


I don't know about that. I do know that you said "Any First (which
I
assume includes yours) would toast an Ericson 35."

My comment is no less vague than Bart's comment about sailing circles
around Beneteaus. I made no mention of my boat.


But what about you?

I'm only worried about the cost of my new sails.


Actually, yes. Though it may not have been part of the original
design priority. The adjustable rig was actually a bit of a
breakthrough in wishbone technology.

Nonsuch had always promoted the ease of sailing thier boats and the
forgiving nature of the rig underway, even in their ads.

I routinely did major sail shape
adjustments while underway, sometimes several times an hour. Have
you done any this year? How often do you change the outhaul?


Not too often. It was adjusted only once on Monday to help flatten the
sail....why do you ask? I re-tuned the lowers today and will hoist
someone small to do the uppers on Friday.


The only sinking I've heard about involved an owner who panicked and

started throwing gear overboard, including his hatch boards.

That's THE ONE. Anthony was the captain of the boat. It's a great
story, but I should not post it here. I can e-mail you the facts if you
have any interest. But the key element of the story is that Anthony was
considering the idea of abandoning the Nonsuch before that happened.
She had already rolled several times and was very slow to recover. BTW,
the owner collected his insurance and bought a Nonsuch 30, which was
here for quite a while. CBS also courted them for the story for a
possible TV movie, but it never came together.


Then your understanding is faulty. But, you haven't been very
reliable in the past.


I though I could be counted on to lie?



And why did you insist it was off the bow?:


because in clip # 3 it was.


Are you sure this mark was actually attached to the bottom?


You mean a Coors bottle doesn't count?



Nor was it far away.


if you're within a quarter mile there's no way it
can be used to determine the VMG to Windward.


About a 3/4 a mile away, Jeff.


Just below a close reach would be about 60 degrees off the true
wind.

We were a bit higher. Hul speed was exceeded.


So are you now saying you were doing 12 knots through the water?

Nope.


RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
Sure they could, but mine are from 1988, Jeff. Could the polars be
conservative or just off, combined with other modern advantages? When
they tested Hull #1 how many people were on board? Did they have the
rig tunes right. Now it's well known that the 35s5 has a hard-to-tune
rig. Did they get it right...all of it?


So why don't you find us the polars from any 35 foot boat that claims
a VMG to windward of 6 knots in any wind condition?

While you're at it, find us one that does it without going higher than
45 degrees. Oh, and catamarans don't count! My PDQ actually does
have a VMG of 6.2 at 47 degrees in 20 knots true wind. I guess that
means I would toast you upwind!


All the more reason why your VMG to Windward could not have been
that
high. Are you saying that beating to windward is not the best way to
go to windward

It depends where you're headed, Jeff. VMG to windward optimal is WHAT
on my boat, Jeff....make a guess.

At 14 knots, perhaps 38 degrees.



And yet you fail to grasp that when you sail lower than the "optimal
point" your VMG to Windward goes down. What part of not sailing at
the "optimal point" do you not understand?

VMG to a mark is exactly that, Jeff. Our VMG to our windward mark was 6
knots.

Wrong answer. VMG to a mark is quite different from VMG to Windward.
Both have very specific meanings, well understood and used
properly by real sailors. This could explain why you don't seem to
know the difference.




Yes, but the subtlety of this you will not understand.

Nonsense. Garmin themselves reports that handheld GPS units give up no
accuracy to larger units so long as they have good contact.

Accuracy is not the issue. I said the subtlety would be lost on you.


The GPS by
itself does not know where the wind is, and therefore cannot report
the VMG with respect to the wind direction.

I have wind instruments, Jeff.

So now you're claiming that you connected your instruments to your
friend's handheld? Why would you do that?



Thus, when your friend's
GPS displayed VMG, it was not VMG to Windward.

I have wind instruments, Jeff.

I don't know all of the features of the latest handheld Garmins, but I
don't believe they will pick up the wind data from your instruments.
Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how this works.

Nope. I made no such assumption. I only might have said that the
best VMG you could obtain was at about 40 degree, if you were sailing
lower than that your VMG to Windward would fall off.

Jeff, listen carefully. CAREFULLY. Our VMG to the WINWARD MARK was 6
knots. Do you understand that this is correct terminology even on a
reach?


But you said, many times, that you were talking about "VMG to
Windward," not the VMG to a mark. I guess the light has finally
dawned in your tiny mind as you've realized your blunder. And so the
Grand Backpedal begins.


At 45 degrees, you'd have to be doing 8.6 knots (actually 9 knots,
including leeway) to have a VMG to Windward of 6 knots.

Jeff, we topped 8 knots a few times. The 1st clip I posted was 7.2 to
7.5. We went faster with some trimming.
I don't think we hit 9 knots. I've been aboard this boat with a crew in
Florida and topped 10 knots and I know what THAT felt like. But I think
the video shows we're moving pretty fast. We spent a lot of time
between 7 and 8 knots.


So you were footed well off. How much do you figure - 50 degrees?
55
degrees?

That's a good question. I could not tell you with any acuraccy for this
discussion.

Spoken like a true novice. You can assure us absolutely that the mark
was directly to windward, and the speeds, but you have no idea what
point of sail you were on!

Its very doubtful that you were at 45 degrees, but if you were, the 8
knots speed through the water yields a VMG of 5.65 knots. At 50
degrees this becomes 5.1, at 55 degrees its 4.6, and at 60 its 4
knots. This doesn't include leeway, which the GPS would pick up, so
you have to add 3 to 4 degrees and degrade the performance accordingly.

That's the problem you have, you kept insisting that you weren't "hard
on the wind" or beating, and that I couldn't predict your speed
without knowing the exact point of sail. But I don't have to, because
by your own admission, the best you could have been doing is maybe 5.2
knots and it goes downhill from there.




So lets look at it the other way - are you claiming you can go
upwind
as fast as a Frers 45, or a Swan 51?

Nope.

So what do you mean when you insist that your boat can outperform its
polars by 15%?



BTW, do you know what a 12-meter polar looks like? It says that the
optimal VMG to windward is about 5.5 knots, at about 42 degrees in 14
knots wind.

We were not in 14 knots of wind. Do you think that those 12 meter
polars are also carved in stone?

For upwind performance, the speed and angle changes very little above
14 knots for many monohulls. For the Twelves, it goes up maybe 1 or 2
tenths in 20 knots of wind. And I got this from Steve Killing's book
where he explains how the polar predictions are extremely accurate,
assuming the hull shapes are within the range that has been well
modeled. He does go on at some length about some spectacular failures
in the '70s, but that's another story. However, these failures led to
the extensive modeling studies that resulted in the VPP software.

He also jokes that whenever owners say their boats' performance
doesn't match the predictions, it always turns out the instrumentation
is not calibrated properly.

You do know who Steve Killing is, I assume.


Actually, yes. Though it may not have been part of the original
design priority. The adjustable rig was actually a bit of a
breakthrough in wishbone technology.

Nonsuch had always promoted the ease of sailing thier boats and the
forgiving nature of the rig underway, even in their ads.

True, but they also emphasized that it was easy to make major sail
shape adjustments while underway. In fact, much easier than most any
other boat. Most Nonsuch owners that I knew routinely tweaked their
outhauls (called "chokers" by Ellis) as the wind changed, or they
changed point of sail.



I routinely did major sail shape
adjustments while underway, sometimes several times an hour. Have
you done any this year? How often do you change the outhaul?

I re-tuned the lowers today and will hoist
someone small to do the uppers on Friday.

Underway??? I'm impressed!

if you're within a quarter mile there's no way it
can be used to determine the VMG to Windward.

About a 3/4 a mile away, Jeff.

Still probably too close, in one minute the angle would change around
6 degrees, so it really isn't directly upwind.

However, your observations simply don't work. If you were footing off
to say, 55 degrees, even a speed of 8.5 knots gives you a VMG of 4.8.
Your insistence that you were not beating simply created a hole for
you that you can't crawl out of. There is simply no way that you had
a VMG to Windward of 6 knots. It probably wasn't 5 knots. And rather
than claim it, you should have realized immediately that it was
impossible. All you've done here is demonstrate that you don't
understand the basic terminology of sailing.

Busted!

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com..
..
What you perhaps should have said is that you were sailing
upwind,
making a VMG of 6 knots towards a buoy.



Well, Martin....in all honesty I knew the video clips of
Heart of Gold
sailing nicely would upset folks like Jeff and Doug. On
the other
hand...ZOWEE! Jeff really went zonko!
For a pathological liar, I'm sure good at coming up with
photos and
video that back what I say in every case. Poor Scotty
still thinks I
went around and put shackles on all the boats at my club!


No, just the ones you photoed.

BTW, who shot those videos, your kid?

Scotty

"Swab Rob" wrote in message
oups.com..

So here it is again, Doug. You're probably do green with
envy to
watch...but here's Heart of Gold clipping along nicely....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d0nSgsgOApg

Vrooommmm!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHHA!!


Vrooom indeed, so goes the motor. Why didn't you show your
knotmeter?

SV

"Swab Rob" wrote in message
ps.com...

...hit 8 knots a few times. I have no idea what VMG is

yes, that's apparent.