Capt. Rob wrote:
So are you still claiming that on any of your clips the "VMG to
Windward" was 6 knots? Remember, your polar says you can't do it.
The French review that you quote says you can't do it. You admitted
that when your friend told you the VMG he was referring not "to
windward" but to a mark 10 degrees off your bow.



1st of all, GOOD MORNING, Jeff. I hope you slept well.
True, the polars (at our point of sail showing closer to 5.2 knots. The
Frenchy sail rag reported 5.5. And I'm reporting .7 and .5 knots
faster.

Actually, I have some doubt about your reading of the polar, since the
faster 36.5 doesn't do that well, and the wing keel should cost you a
few tenths. In fact, even the 407 is only slightly better. But I'll
accept the 5.2 for the moment.

Keep this in mind: The fellow at the helm is a full time sailor. He
retired at 40 and has been sailing full time aboard some of the fastest
sailboats in production.

Totally irrelevant. You might have something if he had a hand picked
crew, new hi-tech sails, a fresh bottom job, and you lost the A/C.
But boats don't suddenly gain 15% over their optimal VMG to windward
just because a competent hand is on the wheel.

Is it so impossible that he could have found
that extra half knot or better?

Yes, it is. You just don't get it. Its like Road & Track said a
certain car did the quarter in 5 seconds, and you claimed you did it
in 4 seconds. In the snow.

This is another point you fail to grasp. While some boats can
frequently exceed their "theoretical limit" off the wind, upwind it is
much more difficult to beat. The VPP programs are pretty
sophisticated, and tend not to be off by more than a tenth. If you're
reading one from Beneteau, you can be pretty sure its accurate. The
one I quote for the 407 is actually posted at the helm of each boat.
And its optimum VMG in any condition is about 5.4, less if you factor
in leeway.

Further, upwind performance to not vary very much between boats of the
same style. Boats simply don't suddenly go 15% faster than predicted.
In PHRF terms, this is like suddenly going 100 points faster than
then rating. It just doesn't happen. The other day you said any
Benny First would "smoke" an Ericson 35-3, when in fact your boat only
has a couple of points on the Erikson. So when it suits you, 2 points
is huge advantage, but now you're claiming that a proper rating for
your boat should be around 30.

He can certainly sail his J24 and J30
better than anyone I've ever seen and does Atlantic crossings almost
every year on performance yachts. He was pushing my boat to see what
she could do and was impressed (not so dead downwind).

Yes, I remember when a friend who was the local Star champion came on
my Nonsuch and started playing with the sail twist. He made the boat
perform close to the polars, not exceed them by 15%.

If you choose to believe that he,

He probably told the truth. You, being a simpleton, misunderstood.
He told you the VMG to a mark 10 degrees off the bow, that is not the
VMG to Windward.

his GPS

His GPS does NOT report the VMG to Windward. This is the issue here.
In order for the GPS to do that, the mark has to be directly to
windward, preferably far away. You told us it was nearby, off the bow.

and I are lying so be it.

Everyone always assumes that everything you say is a lie.

I
gave my report, included pics and video. Maybe next time I'll shoot
video of the GPS, compass and wind instruments.

I'd rather you took a course on basic sailing so we wouldn't have to
explain the simple concepts to you over and over again,

Gilligan wrote:
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Clonk! Where's Gilligan?!



I'm right here RB. I'm a new man - drunk on the euphoria of factual, well
reasoned trolls. I can finally say that I truly understand and appreciate
your steamrolling trolls. You are truly the Juggernaut of Trolls. The global
warming trolls have them in a tizzy, turning themselves inside out over
nothing but hot air! There's a consensus they shout! Show them publications
from respected institutions saying there are still issues to be resolved and
they claim those that do not agree with the "consensus" are sham scientists
or less! We're talking NASA, NOAA, Max Planck Institute, Duke University,
etc. The poor sods with the little minds cannot handle unresolved problems.
They must cling to "consensus" even where one does not exist! If they do not
"have control" they must invent their own reality!

I now understand yet another dimension to your legendary trolling abilities.
Never again will I come at you with swinging mackerals. At worst, I will
stand aside and appreciate your fine trolls from a distance, at best I'll
stand alongside - flinging buckets of chum into the watery frenzy! Because I
have seen the light of the dark side, from this day on, I will never troll
RB. Ever!

Gilligan

Amazing troll Gilligan,

A display of a true artist who hides his bait, by stating it's not
bait, and telling the fish he can not have such tasty non-bait. Making
your bait look non baitish is a master fishermans skill seldom seen. I
bet you use barbless hooks as well...a true sportsman.

How can a man fish so well that lives in Colorado?

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
oups.com...

How can a man fish so well that lives in Colorado?


The fish here are in small rivers. Simply stick a shotgun barrel into the
water, pull trigger.

Actually, I have some doubt about your reading of the polar, since the
faster 36.5 doesn't do that well, and the wing keel should cost you a
few tenths. In fact, even the 407 is only slightly better. But I'll
accept the 5.2 for the moment.


Okay.


Totally irrelevant. You might have something if he had a hand picked
crew, new hi-tech sails, a fresh bottom job, and you lost the A/C.

Well, now we're getting somewhere. My boat has the AC, but she's
currently stripped out for the end of season cleaning. No water in the
tanks, gear and even the anchor removed. My bottom is clean and my
tired sails are less of a factor when I'm not hard on the wind.


But boats don't suddenly gain 15% over their optimal VMG to windward

just because a competent hand is on the wheel.


Calling this fellow competent is like saying O.J. Simpson needed a
little therapy. He's a fairly top notch sailor and very respected in
this area.


Yes, it is. You just don't get it. Its like Road & Track said a
certain car did the quarter in 5 seconds, and you claimed you did it
in 4 seconds. In the snow.

Not at all. And Road and Track has gotten a second more/less on cars
compared to other rags. Such tests, along with Polars are rough
estimates at best. For example, my friend "claims" that he clobbers the
published polars of the J30.

This is another point you fail to grasp. While some boats can
frequently exceed their "theoretical limit" off the wind, upwind it is
much more difficult to beat.

I grasp that, but your whole argument still hinges on polars made up
when the boat was first designed and tested...more than 18 years ago.
Optimal trim and sails were yet to be found. In fact, previous owner of
2 35s5's and Heart of Gold, Arthur Rodriguez said that Beneteau had the
35s5 main all wrong and recut it for better upwind performance. Mark P,
at Doyle is looking at the cut of my main next week on this very issue.



Further, upwind performance to not vary very much between boats of the
same style. Boats simply don't suddenly go 15% faster than predicted.
In PHRF terms, this is like suddenly going 100 points faster than
then rating.

That's an exageration. The 35s5 will stay with newer 1st boats upwind
as reported by owners. Her weakness is in the downward leg. Even the
deep keel does poorly dead downwind.

The other day you said any
Benny First would "smoke" an Ericson 35-3, when in fact your boat only
has a couple of points on the Erikson. So when it suits you, 2 points
is huge advantage, but now you're claiming that a proper rating for
your boat should be around 30.


It's funny how you lie again and again and nobody calls you on it. But
I will. I NEVER said my boat would "smoke" a E35 Mk3. I said 1st series
Beneteau's are faster boats and that the E35 would have a hard time
sailing around even a slow cruising Beneteau. You'd need a Mumm 30 for
that! But Bart's silly post went unchallenged until I pointed out how
dumb it was.


Yes, I remember when a friend who was the local Star champion came
on
my Nonsuch and started playing with the sail twist. He made the boat
perform close to the polars, not exceed them by 15%.

Do you REALLY think this is a valid comparison? Your comparing a
Nonsuch with a 1st 35s5 with a far more tunable and variable rig. If he
only came close to the polars, then he must know have known how to sail
your boat.


He probably told the truth. You, being a simpleton, misunderstood.
He told you the VMG to a mark 10 degrees off the bow, that is not the
VMG to Windward.

Actually, when I asked him our speed, he clearly said 6 knots. I then
asked what the VMG was and he repeated six knots and that our speed was
showing over seven. He was impressed and so was I. The mark WAS to
windward at this time. But again, and I'll state it again because you
can't seem to accept it...we were NOT beating. The video clearly shows
this as we are not sheeted for close hauled sailing.


His GPS does NOT report the VMG to Windward. This is the issue
here.
In order for the GPS to do that, the mark has to be directly to
windward, preferably far away.

Sigh.


You told us it was nearby, off the bow.

I gave that as an example for the 3rd clip, not the second. Can't you
keep track of 3 short videos? The mark to windward was a bouy on the
second clip/


Everyone always assumes that everything you say is a lie.


Yup...I lied about buying a 35s5, about sailing it 3-4 times a week,
about pretty girls aboard, about shackles on the dock, even about
selling boats and doing sea trials. And yet each was backed with pics
and even video which drove people like you out of your skull. Even when
I said Bob L. trimmed the main a few minutes later...BAM, you get a
pic. You all tell stories. Big fish tales. I have documentation of my
modest sails. I fish for you all here, but you should see the e-mails I
get. Most people who come in here think the rest of you don't even have
boats!


I'd rather you took a course on basic sailing so we wouldn't have to

explain the simple concepts to you over and over again,


You think they'd teach me that a close reach isn't to windward? That
WAS your claim before you backpedalled like Lance Armstrong from a
testicle biopsy.
Jeff, you really need Gilligan's help on this.


RB
35s5
NY

How about what the USCG feels about it....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Jeff wrote:
? How about this: anytime you have a customer ask you about sailing, you
? show them this exchange as a way of proving your credibility? See how
? many buyers you have after that.
?

Then, ask them if they need a surveyor!
nyuk nyuk nyuk!

DSK

Yup, a surveyor who is not a member of The Society of Accredited Marine
Surveyors, or The Association of Certified Marine Surveyors, or any
other accrediting body. Shall we talk about Marine Brokers next? How
about what the New York Harbor Master feels about non licensed persons
undertaking to tow vessels in his jurisdiction for remuneration?

Cheers
Marty

Capt. Rob wrote:
....

Totally irrelevant. You might have something if he had a hand picked
crew, new hi-tech sails, a fresh bottom job, and you lost the A/C.

Well, now we're getting somewhere. My boat has the AC, but she's
currently stripped out for the end of season cleaning. No water in the
tanks, gear and even the anchor removed. My bottom is clean and my
tired sails are less of a factor when I'm not hard on the wind.

So you're saying you were not "hard on the wind"? And yet you
exceeded the optimal VMG to Windward by 15%??? You still don't
understand.




But boats don't suddenly gain 15% over their optimal VMG to windward

just because a competent hand is on the wheel.


Calling this fellow competent is like saying O.J. Simpson needed a
little therapy. He's a fairly top notch sailor and very respected in
this area.

Good for him. Doesn't change anything. You're simply mis-using the
terms.




Yes, it is. You just don't get it. Its like Road & Track said a
certain car did the quarter in 5 seconds, and you claimed you did it
in 4 seconds. In the snow.

Not at all. And Road and Track has gotten a second more/less on cars
compared to other rags. Such tests, along with Polars are rough
estimates at best.

By "rough" you mean off by a few percent. Not 15%. The biggest
variance comes from sails, because the new technology can go beyond
the assumptions of the VPP. However, if your sails are old, you loose
any advantage there. And you've already admitted you weren't pointing
at close to the optimal angle, so you lost any extra pointing ability.


For example, my friend "claims" that he clobbers the
published polars of the J30.

"Clobber" going upwind means beating by 2 or 3 percent, not 15%. And
he probably meant off the wind.


This is another point you fail to grasp. While some boats can
frequently exceed their "theoretical limit" off the wind, upwind it is
much more difficult to beat.

I grasp that, but your whole argument still hinges on polars made up
when the boat was first designed and tested...more than 18 years ago.
Optimal trim and sails were yet to be found. In fact, previous owner of
2 35s5's and Heart of Gold, Arthur Rodriguez said that Beneteau had the
35s5 main all wrong and recut it for better upwind performance. Mark P,
at Doyle is looking at the cut of my main next week on this very issue.


Actually, my argument hinges on the fact that the polars of almost
every boat your size has an optimal VMG to Windward of well under 6
knots. Further, you claimed that you weren't even going upward, that
you weren't hard on the wind. Further, you even claimed that the mark
used for the VMG measurement was off the bow. And finally, you're
claiming that the VMG was measured with GPS, and a handheld unit at
that. All of these thing contradict your claim.




Further, upwind performance to not vary very much between boats of the
same style. Boats simply don't suddenly go 15% faster than predicted.
In PHRF terms, this is like suddenly going 100 points faster than
then rating.

That's an exageration.

No. Its not an exaggeration, its called basic math. At 5 knots
you're doing 12 minutes per mile, or 720 seconds. At 6 knots, that's
600 seconds per mile. That's a difference of 120 second per mile,
which translates directly into 120 points on the PHRF rating. Maybe
its a bit less if you really get 5.2 knots, but its still up near 100
points.

So what you're saying is that a quality skipper can make a Westsail 32
go upwind faster, that is, get better boat speed, than an average
skipper on a 35s5.

The 35s5 will stay with newer 1st boats upwind
as reported by owners. Her weakness is in the downward leg. Even the
deep keel does poorly dead downwind.

It can stay close because in fact the differences are pretty small,
only a few tenths. So when you sail nearby you can deceive yourself
into thinking you're going almost as fast.



The other day you said any
Benny First would "smoke" an Ericson 35-3, when in fact your boat only
has a couple of points on the Erikson. So when it suits you, 2 points
is huge advantage, but now you're claiming that a proper rating for
your boat should be around 30.


It's funny how you lie again and again and nobody calls you on it. But
I will. I NEVER said my boat would "smoke" a E35 Mk3.

Sorry, you didn't say "smoke," you said "toast":

"As you might know, 1st series Beneteau's will toast any Ericson 35.
The III from Bruce King was a fast boat, but 1 & 2 were pretty slow.
The Mark III version is still outrun by the older Beneteau 1st 345 for
example"

So who's the liar? In fact the rating for the Ericson Mk III is 123,
SD is 132, the Benny 345 TM is 120, and the 35s5 TM WK is 123. These
are all pretty close, only a few seconds a mile for the comparison you
said would "outrun."

I said 1st series
Beneteau's are faster boats and that the E35 would have a hard time
sailing around even a slow cruising Beneteau. You'd need a Mumm 30 for
that! But Bart's silly post went unchallenged until I pointed out how
dumb it was.

Actually, we all assumed he was talking about the sailing ability of
Benny owners, but you seemed to have missed that.



Yes, I remember when a friend who was the local Star champion came
on
my Nonsuch and started playing with the sail twist. He made the boat
perform close to the polars, not exceed them by 15%.

Do you REALLY think this is a valid comparison? Your comparing a
Nonsuch with a 1st 35s5 with a far more tunable and variable rig. If he
only came close to the polars, then he must know have known how to sail
your boat.

Actually, if you knew anything, you'd understand that the Nonsuch rig
is quite adjustable. Why don't you explain to us how often you adjust
your outhaul or topping lift while underway? I tweaked mine at every
point of sail.



He probably told the truth. You, being a simpleton, misunderstood.
He told you the VMG to a mark 10 degrees off the bow, that is not the
VMG to Windward.

Actually, when I asked him our speed, he clearly said 6 knots. I then
asked what the VMG was and he repeated six knots and that our speed was
showing over seven. He was impressed and so was I. The mark WAS to
windward at this time. But again, and I'll state it again because you
can't seem to accept it...we were NOT beating. The video clearly shows
this as we are not sheeted for close hauled sailing.

Perhaps I should be more explicit: The mark has to be directly to
windward. Not slightly to windward of your centerline. There is a
huge difference.

And one more time you're claiming that you weren't even close to the
wind, you weren't sheeted in, and yet you were going upwind faster
than the polars predict! You really don't understand the meaning of
these words, do you?




His GPS does NOT report the VMG to Windward. This is the issue
here.
In order for the GPS to do that, the mark has to be directly to
windward, preferably far away.

Sigh.

indeed.



You told us it was nearby, off the bow.

I gave that as an example for the 3rd clip, not the second. Can't you
keep track of 3 short videos? The mark to windward was a bouy on the
second clip/

So what was it, directly upwind or 10 degrees off the bow? You said:

"We have a mark set on the GPS about a mile off and we're on a
starboard tack (again, for example). Now, the mark is about 10 degrees
off our starboard bow. GPS is reporting our VMG fluctuating between
5.6 and 6.1 knots as we close on the mark. "

This sure sounds like it was not directly upwind. Nor was it far away.




Everyone always assumes that everything you say is a lie.


Yup...I lied about buying a 35s5, about sailing it 3-4 times a week,
about pretty girls aboard, about shackles on the dock, even about
selling boats and doing sea trials. And yet each was backed with pics
and even video which drove people like you out of your skull. Even when
I said Bob L. trimmed the main a few minutes later...BAM, you get a
pic. You all tell stories. Big fish tales. I have documentation of my
modest sails. I fish for you all here, but you should see the e-mails I
get. Most people who come in here think the rest of you don't even have
boats!

yada yada yada.




I'd rather you took a course on basic sailing so we wouldn't have to

explain the simple concepts to you over and over again,


You think they'd teach me that a close reach isn't to windward? That
WAS your claim before you backpedalled like Lance Armstrong from a
testicle biopsy.

So once again you're claiming that even while on a close reach you had
a faster VMG to Windward than the polar predicts or the touted review.
You simply don't understand the meaning of the terms.

Jeff, you really need Gilligan's help on this.

Gilly has gone over to the dark side!

So you're saying you were not "hard on the wind"? And yet you
exceeded the optimal VMG to Windward by 15%??? You still don't
understand.


Never did I say I was hard on the wind or beating, which is why it's
totally believable that I topped the polars for VMG on that POS.




Yes, it is. You just don't get it. Its like Road & Track said a
certain car did the quarter in 5 seconds, and you claimed you did it
in 4 seconds. In the snow.


Not at all. And Road and Track has gotten a second more/less on cars
compared to other rags. Such tests, along with Polars are rough
estimates at best.


By "rough" you mean off by a few percent. Not 15%. The biggest
variance comes from sails, because the new technology can go beyond
the assumptions of the VPP.

You're still going under the assumption that the polars remain current.
Most people would agree that polars are a starting point.

However, if your sails are old, you loose
any advantage there. And you've already admitted you weren't pointing
at close to the optimal angle, so you lost any extra pointing ability.


Once again "windward" does not suggest that I was clawing my way
upwind. As I said we were NOT beating.


"Clobber" going upwind means beating by 2 or 3 percent, not 15%.
And
he probably meant off the wind.

Actually he's claimed he beats his polars upwind with his recut main by
about 10%. But he also thinks the original polars were far to
conservative. Who's to say the same isn't true for the 35s5?


This is another point you fail to grasp. While some boats can
frequently exceed their "theoretical limit" off the wind, upwind it is
much more difficult to beat.


Actually, my argument hinges on the fact that the polars of almost
every boat your size has an optimal VMG to Windward of well under 6
knots. Further, you claimed that you weren't even going upward, that
you weren't hard on the wind.

Nope, as I already established windward does not always mean hard on
the wind. It's ANY POS above a beam reach.

Further, you even claimed that the mark
used for the VMG measurement was off the bow.


Again this was for clip #3.

And finally, you're
claiming that the VMG was measured with GPS, and a handheld unit at
that.


Is a Garmin handheld inferior to my charting GPS??? Who knew?


No. Its not an exaggeration, its called basic math. At 5 knots
you're doing 12 minutes per mile, or 720 seconds. At 6 knots, that's
600 seconds per mile. That's a difference of 120 second per mile,
which translates directly into 120 points on the PHRF rating. Maybe
its a bit less if you really get 5.2 knots, but its still up near 100
points.

All based on your still solid assumption that we were at 35 degress or
something like that...which we were not. You've failed to make any
argument at all because I'm not claiming 6 knots at 35 degrees. I said
we were making 6 knots VMG to windward and you wrongly assumed that
this meant we were beating. Can the 35s5 make 6 knots of VMG to
windward, which is ANY POS above a beam reach. How about 45%? Hmmmmjm?
Better have another look at the video and try to look at the trim of
the sails.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RivCUMzy4xc

FYI, when beating, the genny is sheeted in well inside the lifelines.


So what you're saying is that a quality skipper can make a Westsail
32
go upwind faster, that is, get better boat speed, than an average
skipper on a 35s5.


Nope....the Westsail is far more locked into it's performance limits
than a performance boat.


It can stay close because in fact the differences are pretty small,
only a few tenths. So when you sail nearby you can deceive yourself
into thinking you're going almost as fast.

I've sailed side by side with a 36.7, Jeff. It's faster upwind, but not
in the way that my 35s5 is faster than a Catalina 36 upwind. Small
differences that matter more for racers.


So who's the liar?


You are. I never mentioned my boat in the comparison with the 35s5. You
said that I did, The E35 is rated at 135 here. Do you think Bart's
freind is literally sailing circles around Beneteau's, Jeff?


Actually, we all assumed he was talking about the sailing ability of

Benny owners, but you seemed to have missed that.

Oh, so you believe THAT as well? I see. Sailors around here don't
usually worry about such things.


Actually, if you knew anything, you'd understand that the Nonsuch
rig
is quite adjustable. Why don't you explain to us how often you adjust
your outhaul or topping lift while underway?

Is that how Nonsuch promoted it's boats? Do you know who Anthony
Serling is and how is Nonsuch sank in the early 90's crossing the
Atlantic? He's a good friend of mine.


Perhaps I should be more explicit: The mark has to be directly to
windward. Not slightly to windward of your centerline. There is a
huge difference.


Agreed. I'm giving you the bouy location to best of my ability. I was
not standing behind the pedestal to line up the mark.

And one more time you're claiming that you weren't even close to the

wind, you weren't sheeted in, and yet you were going upwind faster
than the polars predict!


About .5 knot faster than what's shown on the polars.


So what was it, directly upwind or 10 degrees off the bow?

In clip #2 it's directly to windward. Do you know what that means?


Nor was it far away.


It was NOT far away and THERE you have a bone to seriously pick, but
nowhere else since I never said we were beating.


So once again you're claiming that even while on a close reach you
had
a faster VMG to Windward than the polar predicts or the touted review.


We're probably just below what most folks would call a close reach in
clip #2. VMG was .5 faster than reported by the French magazine and
that was in the early 90's with stock sails.


You simply don't understand the meaning of the terms.


Well then...if that's true, why bang your head against the wall, sir?
It seems I have just enough grasp to keep you on your toes. You're
welcome.


Gilly has gone over to the dark side!

Yeah. I think I prefer he slips back. I'm perfectly fine without him.



RB
35s5
NY

How can a man fish so well that lives in Colorado?



Gilligan wrote:
The fish here are in small rivers. Simply stick a shotgun barrel into the
water, pull trigger.


Phooey!
MANLY men use bayonets!

DSK

"Capt. Rob" wrote:


Well, now we're getting somewhere. My boat has the AC, but she's
currently stripped out for the end of season cleaning. No water in the
tanks, gear and even the anchor removed.


Hold on there! Is it not a USCG requirement that a vessel of your size
carry an anchor? It's certainly a Canadia Coast Guard requirment.

Cheers
Marty
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DSK wrote:
How can a man fish so well that lives in Colorado?



Gilligan wrote:
The fish here are in small rivers. Simply stick a shotgun barrel into
the water, pull trigger.

Phooey!
MANLY men use bayonets!

DSK

....and here I thought they tickled trout....