On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:34:09 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

I never said that a cruiser would opt for pipe berths, etc.
What I did say was that a real cruiser would carefully
weigh what is important and what isn't. In my experience,
those who opt for creature comforts over function, never
make it off the dock.

Well, there is no doubt that many a "cruising boat" never leaves the
dock,
but I read a long time ago that if one is struggling with the
compromises of a particular "cruising" boat, it is important to
remember that most cruisers spend more time living aboard than
actually under sail, so it is best to consider the boat from a
"liveaboard" viewpoint. Everyone has their own set of priorities. A
friend of mine spent what I thought was a princely sum on an aluminum
spade anchor for his Catalina 36 because he "didn't want too much
weight on the bow." Of course, he had a big honking electric windlass
up there.. As my old dear departed grandma used to say.."he would
gag on a gnat and swallow a camel."

I am not sure of what most of your cruiser friends are foregoing. The
weight of the tankage, ground tackle, BIG battery banks, gensets,
inverters all weigh a lot and most are considered almost standard
these days.


"felton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:41:08 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. That's a fact. In addition, neither are they cruised on the
ocean
or in protected waters for the most part. Mostly, their owners sit on
them
and entertain.

You need to get out more. Just about every serious cruiser I've ever
spoken
with or whose boat I've seen are very, very particular about what they
pack
and what they jetison. The ones who aren't particular either don't go
anywhere
and thus aren't really serious or they end up dumping a lot of their crap
very
quickly.

I can't imagine a "cruiser" opting for pipe berths and a stripped out
interior. Most cruising boats are designed with lots of tankage and
storage capacity for the carrying of provisions, ground tackle, tools,
spares and all the rest. It would seem to me that ignoring basic
creature comforts in a cruising boat would be pretty short sighted.
While I think that some boat builders spend a disproportionate amount
of time/money/energy on the aesthetics of the interiors, I would be a
bit concerned if the interior looked poorly constructed or thought
out. I notice even the volume production builders are putting in
higher dollar hardware in the interiors than they used to. Gone are
the days of cheap light fixtures crappy upholstery Of course, boats
cost a lot more than they used to. I suspect the weakening dollar
will have quite an effect on the European boats.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. Sure, they're great boats, but they're not usually raced
on the ocean or in protected waters.

Raced? I'm talking cruising, Jonathan. The Valiant 40, Gardener ketch
at
my
club sail to warm waters every year. They don't have spartan interiors.
Every
serious cruiser I ever saw or read about had plenty of "home" packed
into
the
boat. Nothing spartan.

RB

You're actually
claiming that people do overload them with gagets and crap, and
this is supposedly a good thing?

I like how you tried and failed to make this about gadgets. We were talking
about nice interiors, which are almost always found on "real" cruising boats.
In fact I can't find a builder who makes a "spartan" cruiser. Certainly not
Oyster, Valiant, Swan, Baltic, Hinkley, J-Boats, Shannon, Morris,....the list
goes on an on.
But maybe "real" sailors carefull strip out the wood and trim on these babies,
rip out the furniture...then carefully glue it back for resale?
Face it, Ganzy. You're busted.

RB

Gee, I made it off the dock and I had plenty of creature comforts. I think
you're both making too many generalities here. With a boat bigger than 27 feet
it isn't an "either/or" issue. You can add a "boatload" of toys to a boat for
only a few hundred extra pounds. How much does a DVD player weigh? Or an MP3
disk? Cruisers make decision about these things not based on weight, but on
what type of lifestyle that want when on board. I have cousins that cruise
Maine & Nova Scotia each summer and never have had a TV or fridge on board. I
also have liveaboard friends that carry a large array of comfort stuff - TV,
VCR, high power computer, full woodworking shop, dive gear, etc. - all the more
impressive because they live dirt cheap. (It was worse 15 years ago - they
carried an HP Laserjet II, plus a small genset to power it, on their 32 footer!)

As for racers, I remember going aboard DuraCell, the 50 footer Mike Plant built
for the '89 Vendee and the '90 BOC. He had removed the toilet seat to save
weight. And, of course, the head was in the middle of the main cabin.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
I never said that a cruiser would opt for pipe berths, etc.
What I did say was that a real cruiser would carefully
weigh what is important and what isn't. In my experience,
those who opt for creature comforts over function, never
make it off the dock.

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:41:08 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. That's a fact. In addition, neither are they cruised on the
ocean
or in protected waters for the most part. Mostly, their owners sit on
them
and entertain.

You need to get out more. Just about every serious cruiser I've ever
spoken
with or whose boat I've seen are very, very particular about what they
pack
and what they jetison. The ones who aren't particular either don't go
anywhere
and thus aren't really serious or they end up dumping a lot of their crap
very
quickly.

I can't imagine a "cruiser" opting for pipe berths and a stripped out
interior. Most cruising boats are designed with lots of tankage and
storage capacity for the carrying of provisions, ground tackle, tools,
spares and all the rest. It would seem to me that ignoring basic
creature comforts in a cruising boat would be pretty short sighted.
While I think that some boat builders spend a disproportionate amount
of time/money/energy on the aesthetics of the interiors, I would be a
bit concerned if the interior looked poorly constructed or thought
out. I notice even the volume production builders are putting in
higher dollar hardware in the interiors than they used to. Gone are
the days of cheap light fixtures crappy upholstery Of course, boats
cost a lot more than they used to. I suspect the weakening dollar
will have quite an effect on the European boats.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. Sure, they're great boats, but they're not usually raced
on the ocean or in protected waters.

Raced? I'm talking cruising, Jonathan. The Valiant 40, Gardener ketch
at
my
club sail to warm waters every year. They don't have spartan interiors.
Every
serious cruiser I ever saw or read about had plenty of "home" packed
into
the
boat. Nothing spartan.

RB

Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them.

This is "made up" since it really suits across the board. Most people who buy
ANY sailboat don't have a lifestyle to allow for long trips
This past summer I met couples who WERE cruising....on a Lord Nelson and a
Shannon. In both cases these were not stripped out boats or spartan in the
least.

RB

"Bob****" wrote

We were talking
about nice interiors, which are almost always found on "real" cruising
boats.
In fact I can't find a builder who makes a "spartan" cruiser. Certainly
not
Oyster, Valiant, Swan, Seidelmann, J-Boats, Shannon, Morris,....the list
goes on an on.
But maybe "real" sailors carefull strip out the wood and trim on these
babies,
rip out the furniture...then carefully glue it back for resale?

Do you know any real sailors?

WoW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 3 day weekend trips!!!!! You ARE frickin Columbus!

BWaaHaaHaHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


"Bob****" wrote


Jonathan, we took four 3 day weekend trips last summer,

You're the one bsing. Most creature comforts are only
good while you're in port. The rest of the time, the issue
is whether or not the feature contributes to survivability.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:34:09 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"

wrote:

I never said that a cruiser would opt for pipe berths, etc.
What I did say was that a real cruiser would carefully
weigh what is important and what isn't. In my experience,
those who opt for creature comforts over function, never
make it off the dock.


Baloney! If this is truly based on your "experience", then you have very
little.

BB

"felton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:41:08 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. That's a fact. In addition, neither are they cruised on the
ocean
or in protected waters for the most part. Mostly, their owners sit on
them
and entertain.

You need to get out more. Just about every serious cruiser I've ever
spoken
with or whose boat I've seen are very, very particular about what they
pack
and what they jetison. The ones who aren't particular either don't go
anywhere
and thus aren't really serious or they end up dumping a lot of their
crap
very
quickly.

I can't imagine a "cruiser" opting for pipe berths and a stripped out
interior. Most cruising boats are designed with lots of tankage and
storage capacity for the carrying of provisions, ground tackle, tools,
spares and all the rest. It would seem to me that ignoring basic
creature comforts in a cruising boat would be pretty short sighted.
While I think that some boat builders spend a disproportionate amount
of time/money/energy on the aesthetics of the interiors, I would be a
bit concerned if the interior looked poorly constructed or thought
out. I notice even the volume production builders are putting in
higher dollar hardware in the interiors than they used to. Gone are
the days of cheap light fixtures crappy upholstery Of course, boats
cost a lot more than they used to. I suspect the weakening dollar
will have quite an effect on the European boats.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. Sure, they're great boats, but they're not usually raced
on the ocean or in protected waters.

Raced? I'm talking cruising, Jonathan. The Valiant 40, Gardener
ketch
at
my
club sail to warm waters every year. They don't have spartan
interiors.
Every
serious cruiser I ever saw or read about had plenty of "home" packed
into
the
boat. Nothing spartan.

RB

No doubt, but I'm not really talking about a harbor
liveaboard. I like the camel analogy.

"felton" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:34:09 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

I never said that a cruiser would opt for pipe berths, etc.
What I did say was that a real cruiser would carefully
weigh what is important and what isn't. In my experience,
those who opt for creature comforts over function, never
make it off the dock.

Well, there is no doubt that many a "cruising boat" never leaves the
dock,
but I read a long time ago that if one is struggling with the
compromises of a particular "cruising" boat, it is important to
remember that most cruisers spend more time living aboard than
actually under sail, so it is best to consider the boat from a
"liveaboard" viewpoint. Everyone has their own set of priorities. A
friend of mine spent what I thought was a princely sum on an aluminum
spade anchor for his Catalina 36 because he "didn't want too much
weight on the bow." Of course, he had a big honking electric windlass
up there.. As my old dear departed grandma used to say.."he would
gag on a gnat and swallow a camel."

I am not sure of what most of your cruiser friends are foregoing. The
weight of the tankage, ground tackle, BIG battery banks, gensets,
inverters all weigh a lot and most are considered almost standard
these days.


"felton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:41:08 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. That's a fact. In addition, neither are they cruised on the
ocean
or in protected waters for the most part. Mostly, their owners sit on
them
and entertain.

You need to get out more. Just about every serious cruiser I've ever
spoken
with or whose boat I've seen are very, very particular about what they
pack
and what they jetison. The ones who aren't particular either don't go
anywhere
and thus aren't really serious or they end up dumping a lot of their
crap
very
quickly.

I can't imagine a "cruiser" opting for pipe berths and a stripped out
interior. Most cruising boats are designed with lots of tankage and
storage capacity for the carrying of provisions, ground tackle, tools,
spares and all the rest. It would seem to me that ignoring basic
creature comforts in a cruising boat would be pretty short sighted.
While I think that some boat builders spend a disproportionate amount
of time/money/energy on the aesthetics of the interiors, I would be a
bit concerned if the interior looked poorly constructed or thought
out. I notice even the volume production builders are putting in
higher dollar hardware in the interiors than they used to. Gone are
the days of cheap light fixtures crappy upholstery Of course, boats
cost a lot more than they used to. I suspect the weakening dollar
will have quite an effect on the European boats.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. Sure, they're great boats, but they're not usually raced
on the ocean or in protected waters.

Raced? I'm talking cruising, Jonathan. The Valiant 40, Gardener
ketch
at
my
club sail to warm waters every year. They don't have spartan
interiors.
Every
serious cruiser I ever saw or read about had plenty of "home" packed
into
the
boat. Nothing spartan.

RB

Sure, but then you have to have a genset... and then the weight can add up.
And, it's not just about weight. The nice looking lounge seat is nice while
your sitting on your anchor, but it doesn't contribute much when actually
sailing. Lots of people forgo that kind of feature.

You're right, that we're both making too many generalities. I was responding
to bob's bs post about stuff he knows nothing about.

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...
Gee, I made it off the dock and I had plenty of creature comforts. I
think
you're both making too many generalities here. With a boat bigger than
27 feet
it isn't an "either/or" issue. You can add a "boatload" of toys to a boat
for
only a few hundred extra pounds. How much does a DVD player weigh? Or an
MP3
disk? Cruisers make decision about these things not based on weight, but
on
what type of lifestyle that want when on board. I have cousins that
cruise
Maine & Nova Scotia each summer and never have had a TV or fridge on
board. I
also have liveaboard friends that carry a large array of comfort stuff -
TV,
VCR, high power computer, full woodworking shop, dive gear, etc. - all the
more
impressive because they live dirt cheap. (It was worse 15 years ago -
they
carried an HP Laserjet II, plus a small genset to power it, on their 32
footer!)

As for racers, I remember going aboard DuraCell, the 50 footer Mike Plant
built
for the '89 Vendee and the '90 BOC. He had removed the toilet seat to
save
weight. And, of course, the head was in the middle of the main cabin.



"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
I never said that a cruiser would opt for pipe berths, etc.
What I did say was that a real cruiser would carefully
weigh what is important and what isn't. In my experience,
those who opt for creature comforts over function, never
make it off the dock.

"felton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:41:08 -0800, "Jonathan Ganz"
wrote:

Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. That's a fact. In addition, neither are they cruised on the
ocean
or in protected waters for the most part. Mostly, their owners sit on
them
and entertain.

You need to get out more. Just about every serious cruiser I've ever
spoken
with or whose boat I've seen are very, very particular about what
they
pack
and what they jetison. The ones who aren't particular either don't go
anywhere
and thus aren't really serious or they end up dumping a lot of their
crap
very
quickly.

I can't imagine a "cruiser" opting for pipe berths and a stripped out
interior. Most cruising boats are designed with lots of tankage and
storage capacity for the carrying of provisions, ground tackle, tools,
spares and all the rest. It would seem to me that ignoring basic
creature comforts in a cruising boat would be pretty short sighted.
While I think that some boat builders spend a disproportionate amount
of time/money/energy on the aesthetics of the interiors, I would be a
bit concerned if the interior looked poorly constructed or thought
out. I notice even the volume production builders are putting in
higher dollar hardware in the interiors than they used to. Gone are
the days of cheap light fixtures crappy upholstery Of course, boats
cost a lot more than they used to. I suspect the weakening dollar
will have quite an effect on the European boats.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them. Sure, they're great boats, but they're not usually raced
on the ocean or in protected waters.

Raced? I'm talking cruising, Jonathan. The Valiant 40, Gardener
ketch
at
my
club sail to warm waters every year. They don't have spartan
interiors.
Every
serious cruiser I ever saw or read about had plenty of "home"
packed
into
the
boat. Nothing spartan.

RB

Yeah sure. And you met the Pope and he's your email buddy too.
We for sure believe you.

"Bobsprit" wrote in message
...
Most people who buy these sorts of boats never do a lot of sailing
on them.

This is "made up" since it really suits across the board. Most people who
buy
ANY sailboat don't have a lifestyle to allow for long trips
This past summer I met couples who WERE cruising....on a Lord Nelson and a
Shannon. In both cases these were not stripped out boats or spartan in the
least.

RB