"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
David Kemper wrote:

A Canadian canoe is much slower especially paddled solo.

Yes, but this is only a problem if you're in a degree of hurry
inappropriate to an open boat! OP might be, but might not...

Well yes but then you have to consider that the effort required to move
a craft with greater drag and more windage is going to limit the
distance the OP can go for a given amount of energy. That is to say
before he gets too tired.

Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry.

It's a lot easier to paddle a Canadian 2 up from a technical skill
point
of view, as well as just the extra motive power side. Solo open boat
needs a bit of practice with a good J stroke, and you can't just get
in
and go to the same extent you can with 2 paddlers or a kayak. But
with
a bit of practice solo open canoe does go places. Personally I find
the
requirement of a bit more skill to work it is a nice thing (as long
as
I don't get past what my own skills can deal with, of course!), but I
can see how people would just view it as making life difficult.

I like paddling Canadians solo and 2 up but it is more effort. I passed
my placid water level 2 coach in both canoes and kayaks, so have the
basic skills up to 3 star in both types of craft.


I find my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

In flat water you can just sit on the seats. Where I come down off
the
seats for rough stuff I actually find it's my ankles that suffer
rather
than my knees, but the boats I use have been lined with Karrimat by
their owner. Overall, especially on flat water, I find the
possibility
of more than one seating position makes the open boat more comfortable
than a kayak over a good stretch of time.

My ankles also suffer. I prefer kneeling to sitting as I find I can
control the canoe better and move faster. Speed is always the goal when
you belong to the racing community. Even when there is no real need!

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different
from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up

And I've seen GRP hulks that were basically porus /completely/
restored
to seagoing quality with a suitable dose of TLC. TSKC has an
anasacuta
which was basically a write-off hulk but was rescued, made waterproof
again, had a skeg added and a rear oval hatch in place of the old
round
one. None of that would have been easily possible with an old plastic
wreck.

Totally agree here. GRP (I normally say glass fibre but really mean
composite which can include kevlar and carbon as well) is normally a
lot lighter than plastic too.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm
considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit
faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting
past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks
the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm
sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

I'm going slower, but /can/ paddle for 6 hours: sea touring this may
well be necessary. But from a touring perspective I'd say the where
and
the whereabouts are probably more important to the paddler than the
how
far and how fast, which are clearly uppermost in a marathon paddler's
mind for good reason. I'd sooner dander down the river in a canoe,
but
clearly tastes vary.

It is a very good thing tastes do vary, or we would find the bits of
water we use getting very crowded. I've tried various canoeing
disiplines but find marathon suits me best. I still dabble in other
boats including canoes. I sail and I drive power boats sometimes. I
paddle in the swimming pool too. When I want a change.

David Kemper
Not a fan of overcrowding.

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the
water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you
are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play
on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but
small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn
sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

Ewan Scott

Hmm, what do you think causes this effect?

It could be as has been suggested wind, but I suspect it is more like
inertia. Honestly, I don't know. It isn't critical and I'm wishing I hadn't
made the comment now :-)

Ewan Scott

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"David Kemper" wrote in message
Hmm, what do you think causes this effect?

It could be as has been suggested wind, but I suspect it is more like
inertia. Honestly, I don't know. It isn't critical and I'm wishing I
hadn't
made the comment now :-)

grin I do that too! You say something and some clever dick comes along
and says prove it. You either have to justify what you said, which means
thinking about whether you are correct, or you can wriggle and waffle
and hope they get distracted by something else, or you can admit you
were wrong. Whichever choice you make you still learn something by
reconsidering that which you pronounced upon. (and no doubt believed to
be true.) Sometimes you have to change your beliefs.

David Kemper
Not a fan of wind.
Water sucks.

David Kemper wrote:

Well yes but then you have to consider that the effort required to move
a craft with greater drag and more windage is going to limit the
distance the OP can go for a given amount of energy. That is to say
before he gets too tired.

Indeed, though as with speed, if that distance is /enough/ then it's a
moot point. If he only wants to go X miles, and can, then that's okay,
and it's also okay if he doesn't really care how many miles as long as
he has a nice time and has somewhere to stop..

My ankles also suffer. I prefer kneeling to sitting as I find I can
control the canoe better and move faster. Speed is always the goal when
you belong to the racing community. Even when there is no real need!

Looking at the scenery and wildlife is more the goal for the touring
community! If the OP does want to cover a good chunk of water the kayak
would be better, but if his tastes are more like mine then lots of
luxury camp kit in a Canadian would be more the thing...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
David Kemper wrote:

Well yes but then you have to consider that the effort required to
move
a craft with greater drag and more windage is going to limit the
distance the OP can go for a given amount of energy. That is to say
before he gets too tired.

Indeed, though as with speed, if that distance is /enough/ then it's a
moot point. If he only wants to go X miles, and can, then that's
okay,
and it's also okay if he doesn't really care how many miles as long as
he has a nice time and has somewhere to stop..

My ankles also suffer. I prefer kneeling to sitting as I find I can
control the canoe better and move faster. Speed is always the goal
when
you belong to the racing community. Even when there is no real need!

Looking at the scenery and wildlife is more the goal for the touring
community! If the OP does want to cover a good chunk of water the
kayak
would be better, but if his tastes are more like mine then lots of
luxury camp kit in a Canadian would be more the thing...


Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about. I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though. (maybe that should be he is considering it a
possibility) This implies he wants to be able to cover a larger distance
and indeed will be disqualified on safety grounds should he fail to
complete any stage within the permitted time slot. DW in a solo Canadian
would be a nightmare trip. I'm sure someone will have done it though.

David Kemper
Not a fan of bad dreams.

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about. I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though. (maybe that should be he is considering it a
possibility) This implies he wants to be able to cover a larger distance
and indeed will be disqualified on safety grounds should he fail to
complete any stage within the permitted time slot. DW in a solo Canadian
would be a nightmare trip. I'm sure someone will have done it though.


Yes, I'm a competetive sort of chap so always try and push myself when
partaking in any sport. I find it tough to cycle slowly and always end up
leaving friends behind. Woops.

I'd presume that I'd be looking for distance rather than pottering when I
take up kayaking. I'm wondering whether I could beat the 15hour record of
the DW ... just kidding ...

David Kemper wrote:

Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about.

I was thinking in the context of "I've got a little idea brewing where I
take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and camp out etc etc." from the very
first post.

I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though

In which case, yes, a kayak (and a quick one at that) would be much better.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
David Kemper wrote:

Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about.

I was thinking in the context of "I've got a little idea brewing where I
take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and camp out etc etc." from the very
first post.

I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though

In which case, yes, a kayak (and a quick one at that) would be much
better.

I think I'd like a bit of both from a single vessel. I'd like to potter up
to a pub on the river, but also (mainly) use it to build strength and
technique.

Cheers

elyob wrote:

I think I'd like a bit of both from a single vessel. I'd like to potter up
to a pub on the river, but also (mainly) use it to build strength and
technique.

Note that you can have plenty of strength and technique in an open canoe
and /still/ be a lot slower than a kayak. So if strength and technique
is all you're after on your Go For It competitive side, not necessarily
related to absolute speed and range, then a canoe can still do the job.
In fact you'll need to use /more/ technique to get a canoe moving well.

On the pottering front it's easier to get in and out of and is much more
flexible as regards loading. About 16' can go either 1 or 2 up, so the
loading flexibility extends to company. More of a pain to portage, but
easier to put a portage trolley in with the gear...

But to eat up the miles and still carry a reasonable bit of kit a
touring kayak will be quicker, and easier to get fluent at paddling. A
tourer won't be as quickly as a marathon boat like DK's suggesting, but
is (I'd think) a lot easier to do a week's worth of camping from!

As with bikes, you are stuck with the fact that One Size Does Not Fit
All Purposes.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article , David Kemper
wrote:

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the
Thames and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may
start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a
weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't
got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting
one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

Thanks for any advice

Nick

Apologies for sending email instead of posting. Finger trouble again
don't you know?

1st:
Down stream is always easier to paddle than up stream. Go with the flow.
Long skinny boats are quicker and easier to paddle, but only if you can
stay upright in them. If you tend to fall out regularly they are slower
than wide stable boats.
Fibre glass is lighter to carry than plastic (you need to carry your
boat around the locks), and usually smoother so slips through the water
easier. It is also easier to damage through impacts so is not so good
for rough water. Most canoe clubs will store your canoe for you. Keep
your kit to a minimum. It slows you down and you have to cart it around
the locks. Heavy kit will tire you out. If you can organise a support
crew to carry your overnight gear, you can meet them at preplanned
locations and you can then simply carry enough supplies to last you for
your days paddling. Drinks are the most important cargo. hiccup

2nd:
The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if you
want to see how other people do it.

3rd:
Don't forget about the weirs. Never forget about the weirs!
Dr Bennett will be along in a moment to tell you all about the weirs.
If he can be found that is, as he isn't responding much at the moment.
If he doesn't show up, try googling for Thames weirs on this ng, or the
rowing newsgroup.
Some of us enjoy a good row.
You might find the archives interesting if you ignore the mud slinging.
Dr. Bennett and mudslinging are never very far apart.
Shame really as he is such a helpful and knowledgeable old faXXXX chap.
;-)

David Kemper
Not a fan of slow coaches.

I heard he's a bit busy with DW and stuff atm...

Will be back in circulation next week.


Old faXXX
Not a fan of sick-notes


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