"elyob" wrote in message
. ..
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames
and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar. Otherwise, go
for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels for
portaging too. Better still go in a group, it's safer too.


Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

GRP rots. Apart from the seepage through the gel coat where it will be
cracked, it deteriorates with time and becomes osmotic. So you can test a
boat and it appears watertight, but if you leave it long enough in the water
it fills up osmotically. Since most second hand GRP boats will be getting a
bit long in the tooth - unless you go for a specialist boat, then look for a
plastic boat. In fact, if you opt for a kayak, a sea-kayak or a touring boat
with deck hatches would be adeal.

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

Sitting in a kayak curves your spine the wrong way and it does get
uncomfortable, so some people lean back - which is bad for paddling. You nee
d to warm up, stretch your muscles and lean forwards to get the best kayak
paddling position. It still gets uncomfortable.

The best you can do is set the footrests, knee braces, and seat and seat
back in the best position for you - and the trim of the boat. But you'll
probably still get a sore back.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


What speed can you continuously paddle in flat water with no current?
Believe it or not most people manage 4-5km at a steady pace. If you try on a
canal, you can pass a canal boat at the leagl 4kph, but he has a motor and
he'll soon pass you as you tire. So, on a canal, for instance, ignoring
locks, you might manage say six hours paddling per day, so 24km per day.
However, if the current of the river is flowing downstream at 2kph, and you
are paddling against it, that at least halves your speed and distance
covered. (It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate than the
flow of the river.)

How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

If you must, I'd find some buddies at your local club, get some experience
in and persuade some kind soul to drop you off upstream and you and a couple
of others paddle downstream.

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.

A dedicated touring boat has /plenty/ of room. I've had enough gear in
a kayak for a 3 day *ski touring* trip off a Norwegian hydro loch, so I
really don't see that a few extra days without the plastic boots, skis,
poles and extra warm clothing etc. will be /that/ problematical! The
sort of things folk like to cartwheel in stoppers won't do you any good,
granted.

for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels for
portaging too.

Certainly easier to load in terms of both absolute volume and ease if
input and output, and though it's slower that's only really an issue if
you're in a hurry. I'd personally take a Canadian for this sort of job,
especially as they offer you more potential comfort from a variety of
seating/kneeling positions, but some people prefer kayaks.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ewan Scott wrote:

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to
get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a
longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.

A dedicated touring boat has /plenty/ of room. I've had enough gear in a
kayak for a 3 day *ski touring* trip off a Norwegian hydro loch, so I
really don't see that a few extra days without the plastic boots, skis,
poles and extra warm clothing etc. will be /that/ problematical! The sort
of things folk like to cartwheel in stoppers won't do you any good,
granted.

for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels
for
portaging too.

Certainly easier to load in terms of both absolute volume and ease if
input and output, and though it's slower that's only really an issue if
you're in a hurry. I'd personally take a Canadian for this sort of job,
especially as they offer you more potential comfort from a variety of
seating/kneeling positions, but some people prefer kayaks.


On a weeks tour of Cornwall on bicycle, I managed with tent, sleeping bag,
roll mat and a weeks worth of clothing. Granted, I took no cooking
facilities and just grabbed sandwiches and pub food on the way round. I'm
looking at not taking a tent and replacing it with an outdoor hammock, which
will take up 1/4 of the space and weight.

I guess that I will 'go with the flow' on any extended journey, as I'd like
to enjoy it and not have to overwork too much! So, I will just go up and
down on one day trips for near my home. Hopefully I will find someone else
willing to go away on a trip, especially as I'd have no way of getting there
with equipment. How do most people do downstream trips, you must always have
a dedicated driver? I'm presuming taking a kayak on the bus/train/tube is a
no-no!

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Thanks

elyob wrote:

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

More kayaks are plastic now, but touring, especially on the sea, is a
niche where glass is still an option, and in fact a preferable one in
many cases. It slides through the water better and is easier to repair
and maintain (plastic is pretty bombproof, but it just gets rough and
slow with time, where glass can be repaired back to a smooth finish
quite easily). There's no particular reason not to use a sea kayak in a
large river, especially a smaller one.

http://www.knoydart.co.uk/ are sea kayaking and touring specialists.
They have a line of folding boats which actually are train portable,
though we're not talking Brompton levels of fold convenience here, more
like 90 minutes assembly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
elyob wrote:

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

More kayaks are plastic now, but touring, especially on the sea, is a
niche where glass is still an option, and in fact a preferable one in many
cases. It slides through the water better and is easier to repair and
maintain (plastic is pretty bombproof, but it just gets rough and slow
with time, where glass can be repaired back to a smooth finish quite
easily). There's no particular reason not to use a sea kayak in a large
river, especially a smaller one.

http://www.knoydart.co.uk/ are sea kayaking and touring specialists. They
have a line of folding boats which actually are train portable, though
we're not talking Brompton levels of fold convenience here, more like 90
minutes assembly.

It'll be a while before I can afford a Knoydart! ... The guy at the training
place down the road said me in a sea kayak is like a formula one car for a
trainee driver. Personally, I wish I'd done my test in a formula one car.

I think I'll see how I get on over the next few months, and the club/member
might lend me an old one if I find someone to go with. You never know!

Still, I think I'll see how I get on before I book the holidays up!

elyob wrote:
....
I did pop through a locks at Shepperton when I borrowed one for an
hour or two last year. I held on to the chains as you say.

One reason for going through the locks is that it gives you a chance to
rest and chat with the people on the boats and the lock keeper. On the
other hand portaging around a lock gives you a chance to stretch your legs.

One thing I forgot to mention is that there are quite a few charming
backwaters you can use instead of the mainstream. A number of the weirs
can be portaged next to the weir or across into the weir stream, and
this again takes you away from the mainstream. However for both these
you need local knowledge and care so if you don't have either it's
not an option. Apparently the right of way on the Thames covers any
backwater (except the Jubilee river ?).

When I was doing this sort of stuff there were also a few weirs that
could be shot. I don't know if this is the case anymore.

Bill

"MatSav" wrote in message
...
"elyob" wrote in message
...

The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if
you
want to see how other people do it.


I see the record was something like 15 hours, and am wondering when
they
are
likely to come through the Kingston area.

The Juniors race uses Thames Young Mariners (TYM) at Ham Fields as an
overnight stop. In fact, TYM may be your best local option for advice:
http://freespace.virgin.net/tym.tym/

I'd agree with that advice. TYM also run courses on their sheltered lake
(Ham Dock).
You could also contact Richmond Canoe Club or Royal Canoe Club
(Teddington).

David Kemper
Not a fan or agreeing too much.

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Google is a wonderful thing. Then again, try
http://www.s106156335.websitehome.co..._retailers.htm

Most playboats / creekers / river runners / general purpose boats are
plastic. Proper sea-kayaks are GRP. Opens can be some form of plastic -
usually.

I commend http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/ and
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/ to you as other sources of info.

Enjoy - Mike

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Google is a wonderful thing. Then again, try
http://www.s106156335.websitehome.co..._retailers.htm

Most playboats / creekers / river runners / general purpose boats are
plastic. Proper sea-kayaks are GRP. Opens can be some form of plastic -
usually.

I commend http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/ and
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/ to you as other sources of info.


Google is your friend for sure! I've met Dr Bennett's point of view before
I've really met him!

All the advice given is great, and I hope others getting into the sport will
find this thread interesting. I surely have.

New to a sport means finding your feet, but I'm glad so much response has
been generated by my enquiry. Looks like this has been the busiest thread
for a while in uk.r.b.p ..

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


Oh dear :-(
Lots to disagree with here!

I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc
...

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to
get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a
longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.
Otherwise, go
for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels
for
portaging too. Better still go in a group, it's safer too.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage. Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

GRP rots. Apart from the seepage through the gel coat where it will be
cracked, it deteriorates with time and becomes osmotic. So you can
test a
boat and it appears watertight, but if you leave it long enough in the
water
it fills up osmotically.

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up. I have owned many GF boats and
about 6 plastic boats, and for long distances, GF wins every time.
Marathon paddlers (long distance specialist paddlers) universally use
glass fibre boats because they do the job better.

Since most second hand GRP boats will be getting a
bit long in the tooth - unless you go for a specialist boat, then look
for a
plastic boat. In fact, if you opt for a kayak, a sea-kayak or a
touring boat
with deck hatches would be adeal.

Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances could
put him off paddling all together.


What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

Sitting in a kayak curves your spine the wrong way and it does get
uncomfortable, so some people lean back - which is bad for paddling.
You nee
d to warm up, stretch your muscles and lean forwards to get the best
kayak
paddling position. It still gets uncomfortable.

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.


The best you can do is set the footrests, knee braces, and seat and
seat
back in the best position for you - and the trim of the boat. But
you'll
probably still get a sore back.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Your knees
are raised in the large cockpit area and are not covered by the deck of
the kayak. You brace your feet on the bottom of the boat and against the
footrest. You also operate the rudder with your feet (tiller bar between
your feet & protruding through a slot in the footrest). You sit on a
seat which allows you to rotate your hips. Backrests are not used. You
use your legs to thrust against the footrest to provide a link from your
paddle through your body to the craft. Paddles should be held as near
vertical as possible at the catch of the stroke. Balance is achieved by
keeping centre of the boat under your centre of balance or by use of the
paddles to either brace downwards or to pry upwards. This is done
continuously without conscious thought by the paddler. Marathon boats
are more unstable when not moving.


What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


What speed can you continuously paddle in flat water with no current?
Believe it or not most people manage 4-5km at a steady pace. If you
try on a
canal, you can pass a canal boat at the leagl 4kph, but he has a motor
and
he'll soon pass you as you tire.

I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass me
unless I choose to stop. I usually pass several in a session. Some canal
boats, especially hired ones, try to go as fast as they can and create a
huge wash along the canal. These are the hardest to pass because you
have to climb up and over their wash. Note though that power boats on
the Thames can move much faster than canal boats and can create an even
bigger wash.

So, on a canal, for instance, ignoring
locks, you might manage say six hours paddling per day, so 24km per
day.
However, if the current of the river is flowing downstream at 2kph,
and you
are paddling against it, that at least halves your speed and distance
covered.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster than
the flow!

How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW. IIRC the first 3 days of the 4 day races
are around 30 -35 miles. The total distance is 125 miles. Some paddlers
do this distance non stop paddling through the night. They try to catch
the high tide at Teddington just after it peaks because they want to
paddle with the flow rather than against it. The fastest flow is in the
3rd & 4th hours after high tide if I remember my RYA training properly,
but paddlers will be passing through Teddington before maximum flow.


If you must, I'd find some buddies at your local club, get some
experience
in and persuade some kind soul to drop you off upstream and you and a
couple
of others paddle downstream.

I agree 100% with this last bit.

David Kemper
Not a fan of nonsense.