"HK" wrote in message
...


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are also
against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and teens, and
against making condoms and other devices easily available to anyone who
wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher
had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such preaching on young
women...


I think your first sentence is spot on, although I would add the word,
"responsible" before "thinking".

I have no idea how you arrive at the conclusions in the rest of your post
though. Sure, I read about "extremists" (usually religious fanatics) who
don't like to talk about or believe in birth control, but I don't know any
personally. Most people can differentiate and accept responsible teens and
adults exercising birth control measures, versus "Don't worry about it,
we'll just get an abortion".

Sometimes those in the media place an emphasis on issues that in reality
only applies to a very limited segment of the population. Makes news, you
know.

Eisboch

Eisboch wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...

For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are also
against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and teens, and
against making condoms and other devices easily available to anyone who
wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher
had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such preaching on young
women...


I think your first sentence is spot on, although I would add the word,
"responsible" before "thinking".

I have no idea how you arrive at the conclusions in the rest of your post
though. Sure, I read about "extremists" (usually religious fanatics) who
don't like to talk about or believe in birth control, but I don't know any
personally. Most people can differentiate and accept responsible teens and
adults exercising birth control measures, versus "Don't worry about it,
we'll just get an abortion".

Sometimes those in the media place an emphasis on issues that in reality
only applies to a very limited segment of the population. Makes news, you
know.

Eisboch



Well, I lived in what is referred to as "the Bible belt" for close to
six years, and encountered large numbers of fanatics who were
anti-abortion *and* anti-birth control. They were everywhere.

As I have stated many times previously, I don't really care much about
what "religious" people practice or preach in their houses of worship or
in their homes. That's their business. My objection is to their shoving
their religious beliefs onto society. We have had too much of that the
last seven years from the Republican right, and, hopefully, that will
all be coming to a screeching halt next January.

I'm not saying the attempts to "shove" will cease, by the way. I'm just
saying that beginning in January 2009 with a Democratic president and a
Democratic congress, the "shovers" are not going to get anywhere. There
will be no attempts to overturn Roe v. Wade that get anywhere.

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach
"abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact
of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.





snerk

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:17:10 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:56:29 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:31:01 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the irresponsible
aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic


If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

According to the religion in which I was raised, abortion for any reason,
including the health of the mother, is wrong. But, I think I'd have your
attitude if it came to the choice between the baby or the mother. If I had
to make the choice between one of my kids (daughters) or the baby, I'd
choose my kid.

Your morality always boils down to your own self intrests, doesn't it,
John?


If the choice were me or my daughter, I'd still pick my daughter. When the
choice was Vietnam or running to Canada, I went to Vietnam. So, I don't
think your statement is quite true.

But, believe what you will. Harry does.
--
John H

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:45:36 -0500, BAR wrote:

HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach
"abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact
of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.



It sure as hell kept my high-school girlfriends from getting pregnant!
--
John H

HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens
and the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the
rest of her life.





snerk

If I do not commit robbery then I have no reason to be arrested, tried
and jailed.

BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
BAR wrote:
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch"
wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement
for abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is
bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell
won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club
that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue.
It would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality
and reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make
abortion illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently
anti-abortion are also against teaching proper birth control methods
to pre-teens and teens, and against making condoms and other devices
easily available to anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones
who preach "abstinence." Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the
actual impact of such preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens
and the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the
rest of her life.





snerk

If I do not commit robbery then I have no reason to be arrested, tried
and jailed.



Abstinence is mostly practiced by married couples who are bored with
each other.

"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic

If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.

Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic


For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence."
Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such
preaching on young women...


Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"BAR" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:03:49 -0500, HK wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 07:05:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


Any reasonable person can understand the unfortunate requirement for
abortion in the case of rape or health issues. It's the
irresponsible aborting of life for "convenience" that is bothersome.

Some anti-abortionists are against it even in the case of rape.
And I can see that. Innocent life is innocent life.
Personally, I find it abhorrent, and can frankly say I don't know
anyone who has admitted to it.
As a social issue, the thrust should be in preventing unwanted
pregnancies.
But I would never presume to tell anyone not to have an abortion
unless I was willing to support the child myself.
I would work in that direction for my family, but I sure as hell won't
for a stranger, unless I'm taxed for the new "Unwanted Baby
Entitlement Program" Then I'll pitch in with the rest of society.
There's a twist here on Groucho's "I wouldn't belong to any club that
would have me as a member," but it hurts to go there.

--Vic
If it were men who got pregnant, "abortion" would not be an issue. It
would be "abortion on demand," anytime, anyplace.
Probably something to that. I'm just glad I've never had to make such
a decision. A few years ago my wife collapsed at work with a
spontaneous abortion, losing a tremendous amount of blood.
We didn't know she was pregnant - about 6 weeks.
Rhythm method sucks.
The sonogram at the hospital showed a barely recognizable fetus with a
still beating heart. The baby died within ten minutes. I felt worse
than she did. She was 42 years old. She's told me flat out she would
have an abortion, but I know I would try to convince her otherwise.
The simple solution for us is better birth control.

--Vic

For thinking adults, abortion is not an easy decision.

There is so much hypocrisy surrounding beliefs about human sexuality and
reproduction that I look askance at anyone who wants to make abortion
illegal. Many of the same people who are vehemently anti-abortion are
also against teaching proper birth control methods to pre-teens and
teens, and against making condoms and other devices easily available to
anyone who wants them. My favorites are the ones who preach "abstinence."
Bill Maher had a wonderful "bit" about the actual impact of such
preaching on young women...

Abstinence guarantees no unwanted pregnancies.
Abstinence guarantees no sexually transmitted diseases.
Abstinence guarantees no abortions performed on pre-teens and teens and
the resulting emotional issues that stay with the woman for the rest of
her life.


True, but teaching abstinence has been shown to NOT work well at all.

I assume you're capable of seeing the difference between abstinence, and
teaching abstinence.




Bill Maher sez that the Bush Admin's pressure to teach absence has
resulted in a generation of apple-cheeked girls. Use your imagination.