According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.

Santa will either have to move to the south pole, (where there is
still plenty of ice), or take up boating. Maybe he'll participate in
rec.boats, and become another one of the posters whose true identities
are a mystery. :-)

************************************************** *******
AP
Posted: 2007-12-11 23:00:56
Filed Under: Science News
WASHINGTON (Dec. 11) - An already relentless melting of the Arctic
greatly accelerated this summer, a warning sign that some scientists
worry could mean global warming has passed an ominous tipping point.
One even speculated that summer sea ice would be gone in five years.

Greenland's ice sheet melted nearly 19 billion tons more than the
previous high mark, and the volume of Arctic sea ice at summer's end
was half what it was just four years earlier, according to new NASA
satellite data obtained by The Associated Press.


The Arctic is screaming," said Mark Serreze, senior scientist at the
government's snow and ice data center in Boulder, Colo.

Just last year, two top scientists surprised their colleagues by
projecting that the Arctic sea ice was melting so rapidly that it
could disappear entirely by the summer of 2040.

This week, after reviewing his own new data, NASA climate scientist
Jay Zwally said: "At this rate, the Arctic Ocean could be nearly ice-
free at the end of summer by 2012, much faster than previous
predictions."

So scientists in recent days have been asking themselves these
questions: Was the record melt seen all over the Arctic in 2007 a blip
amid relentless and steady warming? Or has everything sped up to a new
climate cycle that goes beyond the worst case scenarios presented by
computer models?

"The Arctic is often cited as the canary in the coal mine for climate
warming," said Zwally, who as a teenager hauled coal. "Now as a sign
of climate warming, the canary has died. It is time to start getting
out of the coal mines."

It is the burning of coal, oil and other fossil fuels that produces
carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, responsible for man-made
global warming. For the past several days, government diplomats have
been debating in Bali, Indonesia, the outlines of a new climate treaty
calling for tougher limits on these gases.

What happens in the Arctic has implications for the rest of the world.
Faster melting there means eventual sea level rise and more immediate
changes in winter weather because of less sea ice.

In the United States, a weakened Arctic blast moving south to collide
with moist air from the Gulf of Mexico can mean less rain and snow in
some areas, including the drought-stricken Southeast, said Michael
MacCracken, a former federal climate scientist who now heads the
nonprofit Climate Institute. Some regions, like Colorado, would likely
get extra rain or snow.

More than 18 scientists told the AP that they were surprised by the
level of ice melt this year.

"I don't pay much attention to one year ... but this year the change
is so big, particularly in the Arctic sea ice, that you've got to stop
and say, 'What is going on here?' You can't look away from what's
happening here," said Waleed Abdalati, NASA's chief of cyrospheric
sciences. "This is going to be a watershed year."

2007 shattered records for Arctic melt in the following ways:

* 552 billion tons of ice melted this summer from the Greenland ice
sheet, according to preliminary satellite data to be released by NASA
Wednesday. That's 15 percent more than the annual average summer melt,
beating 2005's record.

* A record amount of surface ice was lost over Greenland this year, 12
percent more than the previous worst year, 2005, according to data the
University of Colorado released Monday. That's nearly quadruple the
amount that melted just 15 years ago. It's an amount of water that
could cover Washington, D.C., a half-mile deep, researchers
calculated.

* The surface area of summer sea ice floating in the Arctic Ocean this
summer was nearly 23 percent below the previous record. The dwindling
sea ice already has affected wildlife, with 6,000 walruses coming
ashore in northwest Alaska in October for the first time in recorded
history. Another first: the Northwest Passage was open to navigation.

* Still to be released is NASA data showing the remaining Arctic sea
ice to be unusually thin, another record. That makes it more likely to
melt in future summers. Combining the shrinking area covered by sea
ice with the new thinness of the remaining ice, scientists calculate
that the overall volume of ice is half of 2004's total.

* Alaska's frozen permafrost is warming, not quite thawing yet. But
temperature measurements 66 feet deep in the frozen soil rose nearly
four-tenths of a degree from 2006 to 2007, according to measurements
from the University of Alaska. While that may not sound like much,
"it's very significant," said University of Alaska professor Vladimir
Romanovsky.

- Surface temperatures in the Arctic Ocean this summer were the
highest in 77 years of record-keeping, with some places 8 degrees
Fahrenheit above normal, according to research to be released
Wednesday by University of Washington's Michael Steele.

Greenland, in particular, is a significant bellwether. Most of its
surface is covered by ice. If it completely melted -- something key
scientists think would likely take centuries, not decades -- it could
add more than 22 feet to the world's sea level.

However, for nearly the past 30 years, the data pattern of its ice
sheet melt has zigzagged. A bad year, like 2005, would be followed by
a couple of lesser years.

According to that pattern, 2007 shouldn't have been a major melt year,
but it was, said Konrad Steffen, of the University of Colorado, which
gathered the latest data.

"I'm quite concerned," he said. "Now I look at 2008. Will it be even
warmer than the past year?"

Other new data, from a NASA satellite, measures ice volume. NASA
geophysicist Scott Luthcke, reviewing it and other Greenland numbers,
concluded: "We are quite likely entering a new regime."

Melting of sea ice and Greenland's ice sheets also alarms scientists
because they become part of a troubling spiral.

White sea ice reflects about 80 percent of the sun's heat off Earth,
NASA's Zwally said. When there is no sea ice, about 90 percent of the
heat goes into the ocean which then warms everything else up. Warmer
oceans then lead to more melting.

"That feedback is the key to why the models predict that the Arctic
warming is going to be faster," Zwally said. "It's getting even worse
than the models predicted."

NASA scientist James Hansen, the lone-wolf researcher often called the
godfather of global warming, on Thursday was to tell scientists and
others at the American Geophysical Union scientific in San Francisco
that in some ways Earth has hit one of his so-called tipping points,
based on Greenland melt data.

"We have passed that and some other tipping points in the way that I
will define them," Hansen said in an e-mail. "We have not passed a
point of no return. We can still roll things back in time -- but it is
going to require a quick turn in direction."

Last year, Cecilia Bitz at the University of Washington and Marika
Holland at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Colorado
startled their colleagues when they predicted an Arctic free of sea
ice in just a few decades. Both say they are surprised by the dramatic
melt of 2007.

Bitz, unlike others at NASA, believes that "next year we'll be back to
normal, but we'll be seeing big anomalies again, occurring more
frequently in the future." And that normal, she said, is still a
"relentless decline" in ice.


Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. The information contained in the
AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise
distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated
Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
2007-12-11 22:04:59

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html

http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...n-climate.html

And lastly,

http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf

Do try and read the science instead of the AP.

On Dec 12, 5:56 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html

http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...khaven-climate...

And lastly,

http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf

Do try and read the science instead of the AP.

Yeah, it is hard to tell which quotes are from NASA, employees of
NASA, and the reporter... oh, and a few quotes from some of those 18
(eighteen) scientists.... Wonder who they were, if they worked for
NASA, and how the other 10% of scientists in the world feel about it

On Dec 12, 2:56�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html

http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...khaven-climate...

And lastly,

http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf

Do try and read the science instead of the AP.

The Lord Whatever in the first link is a British politician..... no
more credible than Al Gore. (Al Gore should not be considered a
climatologist).

Neither of the individual scientists in the other two links dispute
that the earth is in a warming trend, they are merely pooh-poohing any
association between a change in the mixture of gases in the atmosphere
and an increase in the temperature of the planet. Check that, one does
agree that there is a link but postulates that the damage has already
been done and that additionally altering he mixture of gases in the
atmosphere is unlikely to accelerate warming any more.

My post simply addressed arctic ice melt, as observed by NASA.
You are reacting to the concept that "evil, greedy, industrial man has
so poisoned the air with exhaust that we're all going to cook as a
result".....and clearly that was not part of the message.

It's a scientific fact, with empirical evidence provided by satellite
photos and other official measurements, that the arctic ice is melting
at an alarming and (at least through the summer of 2007) an
accelerating pace. Whether that is caused by man's pollution of the
atmosphere or not, if the trend continues we could face some dire
consequences.

You have posted here that you are aware of previous polar relocations.
What happens to a revolving sphere when the distibution of mass is
radically altered? With ice building up at the south pole and ice
disappearing at the north pole, we could eventually experience up to a
90-degree shift in the orientation of the planet- with centrifugal
force moving the heavy south pole into a position at or closer to the
present equator. Previous polar shifts have been sudden, traumatic
events. Very few species have survived.

If present trends continue, the Arctic will be ice free during the
summer months as early as 2012. Nowhere did NASA, the AP, or I insist
that you sell your big block pickup truck and take up driving a Prius
instead. :-)

On Dec 12, 5:25�am, wrote:
On Dec 12, 5:56 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:





On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html

http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...khaven-climate...

And lastly,

http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf

Do try and read the science instead of the AP.

Yeah, it is hard to tell which quotes are from NASA, employees of
NASA, and the reporter... oh, and a few quotes from some of those 18
(eighteen) scientists.... Wonder who they were, if they worked for
NASA, and how the other 10% of scientists in the world feel about it- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The important aspect of the item is that the photos (scientific
evidence) are from NASA.

There are a lot of folks insisting that anybody who even observes the
earth is in a warming trend is somehow "lying for political purposes".
Let's hope that doesn't include NASA. :-)

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Dec 12, 5:25�am, wrote:
On Dec 12, 5:56 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:





On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:
According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.
http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html
http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...khaven-climate...
And lastly,
http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf
Do try and read the science instead of the AP.
Yeah, it is hard to tell which quotes are from NASA, employees of
NASA, and the reporter... oh, and a few quotes from some of those 18
(eighteen) scientists.... Wonder who they were, if they worked for
NASA, and how the other 10% of scientists in the world feel about it- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The important aspect of the item is that the photos (scientific
evidence) are from NASA.

There are a lot of folks insisting that anybody who even observes the
earth is in a warming trend is somehow "lying for political purposes".
Let's hope that doesn't include NASA. :-)


At least 75% of those in warming denial seem to be folks who would be
****ed off if Al Gore were proven right on anything. Most of the rest
don't want any interference in their overuse of fossil fuels. Some of
the remainder are those with the proper science backgrounds who honestly
disagree with the overwhelming majority of scientists who see global
warming and our contribution to it as very real.

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:56:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:
|
|According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
|and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
|the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
|leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.
|
|http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302release.html
|
|http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...n-climate.html
|
|And lastly,
|
|http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/CarterTestimony.pdf
|
|Do try and read the science instead of the AP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GGua87bN1M

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:11:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|On Dec 12, 2:56?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
|wrote:
| On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
|
| wrote:
| According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
| and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
| the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
| leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.
|
| http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html
|
| http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...khaven-climate...
|
| And lastly,
|
| http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf
|
| Do try and read the science instead of the AP.
|
|The Lord Whatever in the first link is a British politician..... no
|more credible than Al Gore. (Al Gore should not be considered a
|climatologist).
|
|Neither of the individual scientists in the other two links dispute
|that the earth is in a warming trend, they are merely pooh-poohing any
|association between a change in the mixture of gases in the atmosphere
|and an increase in the temperature of the planet. Check that, one does
|agree that there is a link but postulates that the damage has already
|been done and that additionally altering he mixture of gases in the
|atmosphere is unlikely to accelerate warming any more.
|
|My post simply addressed arctic ice melt, as observed by NASA.
|You are reacting to the concept that "evil, greedy, industrial man has
|so poisoned the air with exhaust that we're all going to cook as a
|result".....and clearly that was not part of the message.
|
|It's a scientific fact, with empirical evidence provided by satellite
|photos and other official measurements, that the arctic ice is melting
|at an alarming and (at least through the summer of 2007) an
|accelerating pace. Whether that is caused by man's pollution of the
|atmosphere or not, if the trend continues we could face some dire
|consequences.
|
|You have posted here that you are aware of previous polar relocations.
|What happens to a revolving sphere when the distibution of mass is
|radically altered? With ice building up at the south pole and ice
|disappearing at the north pole, we could eventually experience up to a
|90-degree shift in the orientation of the planet- with centrifugal
|force moving the heavy south pole into a position at or closer to the
|present equator. Previous polar shifts have been sudden, traumatic
|events. Very few species have survived.
|
|If present trends continue, the Arctic will be ice free during the
|summer months as early as 2012. Nowhere did NASA, the AP, or I insist
|that you sell your big block pickup truck and take up driving a Prius
|instead. :-)

I'll soon have oceanfront property... I guess that isn't *all*
bad....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
-----------------
www.Newsgroup-Binaries.com - *Completion*Retention*Speed*
Access your favorite newsgroups from home or on the road
-----------------

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:13:16 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GGua87bN1M

That's one laid back cat.

--Vic

On Dec 12, 10:14Â*am, Chuck Gould wrote:
On Dec 12, 5:25�am, wrote:





On Dec 12, 5:56 am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:58:13 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
According to that group of left wing nut jobs, the National Aeronautic
and Space Administration, the ice at the north pole (and the rest of
the arctic) is melting at a rate that could
leave the north end of the globe ice free by 2012.

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/press/20070302_release.html

http://motls.blogspot.com/2007/08/st...khaven-climate....

And lastly,

http://www.epw.senate.gov/109th/Carter_Testimony.pdf

Do try and read the science instead of the AP.

Yeah, it is hard to tell which quotes are from NASA, employees of
NASA, and the reporter... oh, and a few quotes from some of those 18
(eighteen) scientists.... Wonder who they were, if they worked for
NASA, and how the other 10% of scientists in the world feel about it- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The important aspect of the item is that the photos (scientific
evidence) are from NASA.

There are a lot of folks insisting that anybody who even observes the
earth is in a warming trend is somehow "lying for political purposes".
Let's hope that doesn't include NASA. Â*:-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I find it almost scary that there are still people on this earth with
their heads stuck so far in the sand, with their ears plugged, that
with all of the reams and reams of data suggesting otherwise, still
continue to say that global warming isn't happening. I hope to hell
none who are that narrow minded are in any kind of technical field!