Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:44:47 -0500, HK wrote:

My first sailboat on the Bay was from the wonderful folks who brought
us Tiara. S2 9.2. Just under 30', and a wide-bodied slowpoke. But it
was easy to sail.

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.


It was only a year old when I bought it and as I posted, it was easy to
sail, and fun, too.

Sitting in an oversized old tub of a GB is not my kind of boating. It
wasn't then, and it isn't now.

So the lobster boat was...a LIE?

Who would have thought...

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:56:13 -0800, Chuck Gould
wrote:

Then why does a statement that modern composite construction is
supplanting traditional hand rolled rove and resin "peg the bullship-o-
meter"?

There are some legitimate concerns. Leading edge racing sailboats
started using end grain balsa cores back in the mid 80s to save
weight. End grain balsa was supposed to solve the "water migration in
the core issue". For various reasons most of those boats have ended
up getting water in the core anyway, and a lot of them have already
been scrapped. The jury is still out on all new construction
techniques until the boats have been around for a while.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:14:38 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:10:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

I've heard that before, but I'm not at all sure that it is true with
closed cell foam.

I saw a 12 year old Ranger 318 VS when it was being cut up and the
foam flotation looked brand new.

I'm not up on the techniques used to core hulls, or the materials, but
when I was reading up on it I concluded my preference would be solid
FRP hull.
With a sailboat like a Mac 26X/M you get that, and "unsinkable"
flotation elsewhere.
The Carolina Skiff and Boston Whaler have the flotation in the hull.
I see on the CS forum that some owners have delamination problems,
and in a recent post the problem was so bad an owner started taking on
water. They sometimes get their boats replaced under warranty and
CS seems to be a stand-up outfit.
But I'm starting to have second thoughts about owning one.
I haven't heard about Whalers having these problems, but haven't
really tried looked at them hard.

--Vic

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:41 -0500, HK wrote:

Absolutely, although 700 hp is about the norm for an offshore sportfish
boat of that size. The engines will be about $18,000 each through
Parker, I would guess. That would be the fully rigged price. $36,000 for
the pair. I wonder what a pair of new 350 hp diesels, fully rigged,
with transmissions, goes for these days? Let's say...$80,000+, or a
$44,000 difference. It's going to take a hell of a lot of diesel
efficiency to make that up!

Well, lets run the numbers just for the fun of it. Your price
estimate is in the ball park so let's figure out what the payback is
over 5 years or so. Assuming the diesels will return 50% of their
extra cost on resale, the number to meet is $22,000.

With the pair of big OBs the boat will burn about 50 gph, 25 gph with
diesels. Gas at the marina is about $4, diesel about $3, cost per
hour $200 gas, $75 diesel, $125 delta.

$22,000 divided by $125 is 176 hours. That is the break even point.
If you use the boat more than 176 hours you are money ahead on
operating costs alone. Factor in the reliability and longevity of
diesels and you are way ahead if you use the boat regularly.


My first thought was that by the time the Yamahas are due for their first
rebuild, the diesels will just about be nicely broken in.

Besides, at 35' a proper boat should have inboards. With fixed props. And
rudders.
A boaty-boat.

Eisboch

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:46 -0500, HK wrote:

There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

There are lots of used ones from the 80s still going strong. They are
such great boats that it pays to do a refurb on them and bring them
back to like new. You can buy a used 46 for 200K or so, put 2 or 300
into a complete refit and still be way ahead of a new boat of
comparable quality.

The guy beside me at Kingman is doing exactly that in his 70's something 46'
Bert.
He looked around at new boats and realized it would cost him over a million
to replace what he had. He likes the hull so much that he's having Kingman
do a repower and complete renovation inside and out over the winter. He
figures it will run him about 200K.

I met the mechanic who will be doing the bulk of the work on the repower and
will also be coordinating the rest of the renovation. He's been maintaining
the owner's Bert for many years but started working at Kingman 2 years ago.
The Bert owner purposely brought the boat to Kingman for the work because
this particular mechanic was there.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:02:30 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:46 -0500, HK wrote:

There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

There are lots of used ones from the 80s still going strong. They are
such great boats that it pays to do a refurb on them and bring them
back to like new. You can buy a used 46 for 200K or so, put 2 or 300
into a complete refit and still be way ahead of a new boat of
comparable quality.

That's the way I've been thinking lately after seeing a '47 Post that
was refurbished.

I've seen a couple of insurance boats that would make good candidates
for this approach.


Little too old.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:13:44 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

I've seen a couple of insurance boats that would make good candidates
for this approach.

If you want to end up with a great boat at a reasonable price
(reasonable is relative), I'd start out with something better than an
insurance boat so that you can spend most of the money on cosmetic
stuff. The Berts have great electrical systems so that's not usually
a problem. The 8V92TIs can be completely refurbed for $30K each, a
new genset for another 20K. Figure another 30K for new controls,
instruments and electronics. A good awlgrip job will run about 30 to
50K, complete interior refurb 50 to 100K, new canvas 10K, new props
and shafts 10K.

So let's add it up, taking mid point of the ranges:

Engines 60
Genset 20
Cntls, etc 30
Awlgrip 40
Interior 75
Canvas 10
Props 10

Loooks like about $245 give or take, maybe $300 for top shelf
everything.

Decent used 46s are about $200, so you end up with a $1M boat for less
than half. You could easily spend another 20 or 30 for new helm
seats, fighting chair, ice maker, out riggers, etc.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:58:49 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

My first thought was that by the time the Yamahas are due for their first
rebuild, the diesels will just about be nicely broken in.

Besides, at 35' a proper boat should have inboards. With fixed props. And
rudders.
A boaty-boat.

Exactly, and you're money ahead on fuel at less than 200 hours.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:14:38 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:10:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy
any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

I've heard that before, but I'm not at all sure that it is true with
closed cell foam.

I saw a 12 year old Ranger 318 VS when it was being cut up and the
foam flotation looked brand new.

I'm not up on the techniques used to core hulls, or the materials, but
when I was reading up on it I concluded my preference would be solid
FRP hull.
With a sailboat like a Mac 26X/M you get that, and "unsinkable"
flotation elsewhere.
The Carolina Skiff and Boston Whaler have the flotation in the hull.
I see on the CS forum that some owners have delamination problems,
and in a recent post the problem was so bad an owner started taking on
water. They sometimes get their boats replaced under warranty and
CS seems to be a stand-up outfit.
But I'm starting to have second thoughts about owning one.
I haven't heard about Whalers having these problems, but haven't
really tried looked at them hard.

--Vic

Cored construction and foam floatation are two different things.
The way a Whaler is built (and some other manufacturers now-a-days) could
be considered a extreme meld of both I suppose. There have been cases of
Whalers becoming "waterlogged" due to cracks in the hull leading to water
saturation of the foam.

I agree with Harry regarding cored construction. Solid below and just up
over the waterline, then non-balsa coring (closed cell) is ok above.


Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:24:01 -0500, " JimH" ask wrote:

I guess I need to see your definition of 'sport fishing'.

You're not likely to be convinced but on the east coast it is commonly
meant to be "deep sea fishing", or going out off the continental shelf
to the "canyons". It takes a decent boat to go out there and back in
the windy conditions which frequently prevail.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I believe you. I just did not know what you East Coast snobs were referring
to.

I actually live on the west coast, the west coast of Florida that is,
a few short miles from the Gulf. There are lots of sportfishing boats
on the Gulf of course but it's different. The best fishing is in or
near the Gulf Stream, there's no getting away from it. The boat 2
slips down from us came in with 7 tuna this afternoon. You don't get
that too many other places.