Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous line
goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the independents
disappearing, since they build the best boats.

When Brunswick bought Triton, they left the Triton management in place and
production has continued as before the buyout. Some "independents" that are
stapped for cash and without resources start cutting costs and turning out
inferior products. Your statement is too much of a broad brush and
inaccurate.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 3, 8:36 pm, "William Bruce" wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous line
goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the independents
disappearing, since they build the best boats.

When Brunswick bought Triton, they left the Triton management in place and
production has continued as before the buyout. Some "independents" that are
stapped for cash and without resources start cutting costs and turning out
inferior products. Your statement is too much of a broad brush and
inaccurate.

Not related to boats, but sort of in the same context of the thread,
Ampeg, a guitar amplifier company, known for it's benchmark quality
was owned bySt. Louis Music company for several years, then was sold
to another firm. At the Lakland 10th aniversary bach,I talked to one
of the higher reps of Ampeg, and he told me that the new owners
guarenteed that the management would stay in place, and that the
products would still be built to the same rigid specs as before. Now
Ampeg has been sold again,a nd looks like it's going to be a different
game.

"Rumor" is that the Ampeg line will be shipped to Vietnam, and Lord
knows whats going to happen, because the new owners are wanting to
play the price/profit game.

pity

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Tim wrote:
On Nov 3, 8:36 pm, "William Bruce" wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous line
goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the independents
disappearing, since they build the best boats.
When Brunswick bought Triton, they left the Triton management in place and
production has continued as before the buyout. Some "independents" that are
stapped for cash and without resources start cutting costs and turning out
inferior products. Your statement is too much of a broad brush and
inaccurate.

Not related to boats, but sort of in the same context of the thread,
Ampeg, a guitar amplifier company, known for it's benchmark quality
was owned bySt. Louis Music company for several years, then was sold
to another firm. At the Lakland 10th aniversary bach,I talked to one
of the higher reps of Ampeg, and he told me that the new owners
guarenteed that the management would stay in place, and that the
products would still be built to the same rigid specs as before. Now
Ampeg has been sold again,a nd looks like it's going to be a different
game.

"Rumor" is that the Ampeg line will be shipped to Vietnam, and Lord
knows whats going to happen, because the new owners are wanting to
play the price/profit game.

pity



I saw a beautiful old Gretsch f-hole electric hanging in the window of a
music store today. Almost went inside for a look-see, but I was carrying
four gallons of paint in buckets, and I thought my hands would protest
mightily if I put the load down and then picked it up again.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

Where have you been, Harry?

Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats. Sometimes
people make the mistake of looking at the cheapest entry level product
a corporation builds and then presuming that no matter what point they
buy into the product line or what trademark they get the quality will
be no better than the least expensive, entry level "leader" item the
corporation builds.

That's the same logic that's in place when a guy says, "I saw the
Chevrolet AVEO and wasn't at all impressed, so I won't waste any time
looking at the Cadillac CTS- after all both cars are built by the same
company so the Cadillac won't be any better than the AVEO.

The $9995 boat-motor-trailer combo doesn't represent the entire
Brunswick line......far from it.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

Where have you been, Harry?

Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.

I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"HK" wrote in message
...
Tim wrote:
On Nov 3, 8:36 pm, "William Bruce" wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line
goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents
disappearing, since they build the best boats.
When Brunswick bought Triton, they left the Triton management in place
and
production has continued as before the buyout. Some "independents" that
are
stapped for cash and without resources start cutting costs and turning
out
inferior products. Your statement is too much of a broad brush and
inaccurate.

Not related to boats, but sort of in the same context of the thread,
Ampeg, a guitar amplifier company, known for it's benchmark quality
was owned bySt. Louis Music company for several years, then was sold
to another firm. At the Lakland 10th aniversary bach,I talked to one
of the higher reps of Ampeg, and he told me that the new owners
guarenteed that the management would stay in place, and that the
products would still be built to the same rigid specs as before. Now
Ampeg has been sold again,a nd looks like it's going to be a different
game.

"Rumor" is that the Ampeg line will be shipped to Vietnam, and Lord
knows whats going to happen, because the new owners are wanting to
play the price/profit game.

pity



I saw a beautiful old Gretsch f-hole electric hanging in the window of a
music store today.

Irrelevant to this subject.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Tim" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Nov 3, 8:36 pm, "William Bruce" wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line
goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents
disappearing, since they build the best boats.

When Brunswick bought Triton, they left the Triton management in place
and
production has continued as before the buyout. Some "independents" that
are
stapped for cash and without resources start cutting costs and turning
out
inferior products. Your statement is too much of a broad brush and
inaccurate.

Not related to boats, but sort of in the same context of the thread,
Ampeg, a guitar amplifier company, known for it's benchmark quality
was owned bySt. Louis Music company for several years, then was sold
to another firm. At the Lakland 10th aniversary bach,I talked to one
of the higher reps of Ampeg, and he told me that the new owners
guarenteed that the management would stay in place, and that the
products would still be built to the same rigid specs as before. Now
Ampeg has been sold again,a nd looks like it's going to be a different
game.

"Rumor" is that the Ampeg line will be shipped to Vietnam, and Lord
knows whats going to happen, because the new owners are wanting to
play the price/profit game.

pity

Great. I'd just talked myself out of upgrading my amp head and waiting until
finances were in better shape. Now, you've confused the issue. :-)

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"HK" wrote in message
...
Tim wrote:
On Nov 3, 8:36 pm, "William Bruce" wrote:
"HK" wrote in message

. ..

Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line
goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents
disappearing, since they build the best boats.
When Brunswick bought Triton, they left the Triton management in place
and
production has continued as before the buyout. Some "independents" that
are
stapped for cash and without resources start cutting costs and turning
out
inferior products. Your statement is too much of a broad brush and
inaccurate.
Not related to boats, but sort of in the same context of the thread,
Ampeg, a guitar amplifier company, known for it's benchmark quality
was owned bySt. Louis Music company for several years, then was sold
to another firm. At the Lakland 10th aniversary bach,I talked to one
of the higher reps of Ampeg, and he told me that the new owners
guarenteed that the management would stay in place, and that the
products would still be built to the same rigid specs as before. Now
Ampeg has been sold again,a nd looks like it's going to be a different
game.

"Rumor" is that the Ampeg line will be shipped to Vietnam, and Lord
knows whats going to happen, because the new owners are wanting to
play the price/profit game.

pity


I saw a beautiful old Gretsch f-hole electric hanging in the window of a
music store today.

Irrelevant to this subject.



Yes, I've often noted how important relevancy is in rec.boats.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 4, 4:30?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

Where have you been, Harry?

Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.

I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions. Is it possible that the same changes
that make the boat less "fishable" in your estimation might make it
better suited for cruising and exploring or some other purpose?
Albemarle builds boats that range up to 40-soome feet in length, and
not all are intended exclusively for use by the weekend or retired
fisherman. It may be that in order to increase total overall appeal
and sales of the new model Albemarle decided to make it slightly less
specialized......don't know this for a fact, simply stating a
possibility.

To build a good case for a decline in quality I think it takes a lot
more than the appearance of a new hull design with different
characteristics.
Why not check out one of the new boats in person and see if fit,
finish,
hardware, workmanship aren't still up to traditional standards? I'll
be getting underway on one of their new boats, just over 30-feet LOA,
in the next week or so. The brand doesn't have the long history in
this region that it enjoys back on the east coast, so I can't say that
I will be able to compare it knowledgeably with the pre-2005
produciton- but a pretty thorough at-the-dock examination of one of
the current boats a few months ago revealed no glaring defects or
cheap-cut aspects- I thought the boat was pretty impressive overall
and I am looking forward to the opportunity to learn even more about
it.

(The "Hatteras Collection" includes Hatteras, Cabo, and Albemarle. The
Harrell family sold to Brunswick in 2005).

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 4, 4:30?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions.

Slightly different conditions? Like what, flats fishing? Dockside condos?

There has been discussion for some time on the more serious "fishing"
boards about the downturn in quality in Cabos by those who know them
well, and the same is beginning to be said about Albemarles. These
comments come from experienced owners who actually know something about
these boats and others of their style. Guys who when they see a term
like "composite construction" used to describe a hull tend to say,
"composite what?"

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 4, 8:40?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 4, 4:30?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions.

Slightly different conditions? Like what, flats fishing? Dockside condos?

There has been discussion for some time on the more serious "fishing"
boards about the downturn in quality in Cabos by those who know them
well, and the same is beginning to be said about Albemarles. These
comments come from experienced owners who actually know something about
these boats and others of their style. Guys who when they see a term
like "composite construction" used to describe a hull tend to say,
"composite what?"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You keep expressing a concern regarding the term "composite."

When I visit some of the local factories, the types and varieties of
materials used by everybody is amazing in its diversity. Gone are the
days when most boats were built simply from mulitple layers of glass
strand cloth and resin. Space age materials such as Kevlar, and a wide
variety of coring materials (going well beyond the traditional and
problematic balsas and foams) are strategically included in the
assembly of materials in the "dry" layup before the vaccuum-assisted
infusion of resin. Many of these specialized synthetic materials are
produced specficially for inclusion in a fibergalss hull. There was a
time when differentiating between "hand rolled" and chopper gun FRP
was sufficiently informative, but in an era of rapidly changing (and
we hope "advancing") technology the general term "composite" is as
useful as "hand laid" used to be. How many of these savvy fishermen
would routinely demand to know "hand laid with what? How many layers
at the keel, at the chine? What is the rove to resin ratio in the
transom?" etc?


As you like to view the boating world from the perspective of a
fisherman, here's a link to an item that appeared in Sal****er
Sportsman. It fills in many of the gaps for folks uneasy about the
"new fangled" terms. :-)

http://www.sal****ersportsman.com/ar...sp?ID=21012214

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 4, 8:40?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 4, 4:30?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.
Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions.
Slightly different conditions? Like what, flats fishing? Dockside condos?

There has been discussion for some time on the more serious "fishing"
boards about the downturn in quality in Cabos by those who know them
well, and the same is beginning to be said about Albemarles. These
comments come from experienced owners who actually know something about
these boats and others of their style. Guys who when they see a term
like "composite construction" used to describe a hull tend to say,
"composite what?"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You keep expressing a concern regarding the term "composite."


Yes, well, the question wasn't about "composite," but composite *what*?
I asked you that several times, and you never provided an answer.


I can appreciate the use of foamboard as the filling of a fiberglass
sandwich in the transom, but not in the hullsides or bottom. The only
materials I think suitable for the fiberglass "hull" are the various
cloths and resins, not foam or foam boards or fillers.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"HK" wrote in message
. ..

I saw a beautiful old Gretsch f-hole electric hanging in the window of a
music store today.

Irrelevant to this subject.

Yes, I've often noted how important relevancy is in rec.boats.

I was at the supermarket yesterday and I saw some milk for sale.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 4, 9:10?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 4, 8:40?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 4, 4:30?am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.
Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions.
Slightly different conditions? Like what, flats fishing? Dockside condos?

There has been discussion for some time on the more serious "fishing"
boards about the downturn in quality in Cabos by those who know them
well, and the same is beginning to be said about Albemarles. These
comments come from experienced owners who actually know something about
these boats and others of their style. Guys who when they see a term
like "composite construction" used to describe a hull tend to say,
"composite what?"- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You keep expressing a concern regarding the term "composite."

Yes, well, the question wasn't about "composite," but composite *what*?
I asked you that several times, and you never provided an answer.

I can appreciate the use of foamboard as the filling of a fiberglass
sandwich in the transom, but not in the hullsides or bottom. The only
materials I think suitable for the fiberglass "hull" are the various
cloths and resins, not foam or foam boards or fillers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Foam" is a poor choice below the waterline, but few of the
specialized cellular structures I see included in dry layups can be
properly characterized as a foam. With trade names like Corecell,
Divinycell, and others, these materials are normally introduced in a
flexible dry sheet, speicifically engineered to allow the most
efficient and uniform distribution and penetrataion of resin during
the vacuum infusion process There are channels of varying dimensions
cut through the material to allow the resin to flow. As a general
class, they do not absorb water. A "foam" core never really became in
integral part of the laminate to the same degree that the modern
"composite" materials do.

Technology often advances faster than the human willingness to accept
new ideas. Don't be surprised if the 1980's idea that "nothing but
rove and resin can ever be used below the waterline" eventually begins
to
be supplanted by materials that have proven suitable for the purpose.

At one time back in the 60's or early 70's a local boat builder
(Fairliner)
produced a series of boats that had fiberglass gunwales but were
plywood or planked from the chines to the keel. The marketing pitch of
the day was that they had "no fiberglass below the waterline!" They
sold pretty well to aging boaters who weren't entirely ready to trust
that experimental new material of the day, fiberglass. :-)

If it were just about building a boat as cheaply as possible, some of
the techniques used to produce the lower end FRP hulls in the past
were quite likely cheaper than vaccuum infused composite
construction.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
Harry Krause wrote:
You keep expressing a concern regarding the term "composite."
Yes, well, the question wasn't about "composite," but composite *what*?
I asked you that several times, and you never provided an answer.

I can appreciate the use of foamboard as the filling of a fiberglass
sandwich in the transom, but not in the hullsides or bottom. The only
materials I think suitable for the fiberglass "hull" are the various
cloths and resins, not foam or foam boards or fillers.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



"Foam" is a poor choice below the waterline, but few of the
specialized cellular structures I see included in dry layups can be
properly characterized as a foam. With trade names like Corecell,
Divinycell, and others, these materials are normally introduced in a
flexible dry sheet, speicifically engineered to allow the most
efficient and uniform distribution and penetrataion of resin during
the vacuum infusion process There are channels of varying dimensions
cut through the material to allow the resin to flow. As a general
class, they do not absorb water. A "foam" core never really became in
integral part of the laminate to the same degree that the modern
"composite" materials do.

Yes, Chuck, I know about these materials and how they are used. I've
seen them used in boat construction. That's not the point. They're foam,
albeit in "foamboard" form and I wouldn't buy a boat in which they were
used in the hull, aside from the transom and perhaps way above the
waterline. They're fine for decks, and for "furniture" in the cabin,
though.

There's no doubt foamboard makes for a lighter boat.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Sat, 03 Nov 2007 22:42:13 -0700, Chuck Gould
wrote:

Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats. Sometimes
people make the mistake of looking at the cheapest entry level product
a corporation builds and then presuming that no matter what point they
buy into the product line or what trademark they get the quality will
be no better than the least expensive, entry level "leader" item the
corporation builds.

I think that there's always a concern when a large corporation buys
into a smaller company that quality will suffer. The business
rationale for the merger is almost always cost reduction. If those
cost saves are not realized in an intelligent way, and if the
corporate culture of the smaller firm is seriously disrupted, then
there is no guarantee that high quality will continue. On the other
hand if the new corporate parent invests in better production methods
that are also more efficient, that could turn out to improve overall
quality. You just have to wait and see.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:10:43 -0500, HK wrote:

The only
materials I think suitable for the fiberglass "hull" are the various
cloths and resins, not foam or foam boards or fillers.

From the very beginning fiberglass boat builders have been using core
material in strategic places to add thickness and stiffness without
adding weight. Unsupported fiberglass by itself is not a particularly
good structural material. Wood was probably the first core material
and is still very popular. The trick is to properly protect it from
moisture and rot. If you take a look at well built offshore boats
like Bertram, Hatteras and Grand Banks you will find a lot of
structural wood. The secret is to use high quality material and
protect it well. Fiberglass combined with any type of core material
is a composite.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:10:43 -0500, HK wrote:

The only
materials I think suitable for the fiberglass "hull" are the various
cloths and resins, not foam or foam boards or fillers.

From the very beginning fiberglass boat builders have been using core
material in strategic places to add thickness and stiffness without
adding weight. Unsupported fiberglass by itself is not a particularly
good structural material. Wood was probably the first core material
and is still very popular. The trick is to properly protect it from
moisture and rot. If you take a look at well built offshore boats
like Bertram, Hatteras and Grand Banks you will find a lot of
structural wood. The secret is to use high quality material and
protect it well. Fiberglass combined with any type of core material
is a composite.


Yeah, Hatteras is well-known for using a lot of "structural wood" in its
hullsides and bottoms, right, Wayne? Jeez.

Properly protected wood is just fine in stringers, bulkheads, transoms,
et cetera.

But that wasn't what was being discussed. Hulls were.

Does that high transom, dead transmission RV of yours have wood in its
hullsides or bottom? Well, hopefully if it does, it isn't balsa.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:12:19 -0500, HK wrote:

Properly protected wood is just fine in stringers, bulkheads, transoms,
et cetera.

But that wasn't what was being discussed. Hulls were.

THe hull is more than just topsides and bottoms, and the transom is
part of the hull also, last time I looked. Encapsulation and strength
of core material is the key but I agree that the bottom and hull sides
should ideally be uncored. If you do that however, you have to
stiffen them up in some other way, and increasing the thickness of the
glass laminate is an inefficient way to do it. The traditional way is
to add internal structure, typically encapsulated wood, another form
of composite construction.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:12:19 -0500, HK wrote:

Properly protected wood is just fine in stringers, bulkheads, transoms,
et cetera.

But that wasn't what was being discussed. Hulls were.

THe hull is more than just topsides and bottoms, and the transom is
part of the hull also, last time I looked. Encapsulation and strength
of core material is the key but I agree that the bottom and hull sides
should ideally be uncored. If you do that however, you have to
stiffen them up in some other way, and increasing the thickness of the
glass laminate is an inefficient way to do it. The traditional way is
to add internal structure, typically encapsulated wood, another form
of composite construction.

That's an area of agreement, previously acknowledged.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 4, 8:12 pm, HK wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:10:43 -0500, HK

Does that high transom, dead transmission RV of yours have wood in its
hullsides or bottom? Well, hopefully if it does, it isn't balsa

"Balsa" = "Bayliner"

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:32:58 -0800, Tim wrote:

Does that high transom, dead transmission RV of yours have wood in its
hullsides or bottom? Well, hopefully if it does, it isn't balsa

"Balsa" = "Bayliner"

Quite a few supposedly high quality sailboats have also been built
with balsa cored hulls. Many of them have turned into expensive
junk.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:32:58 -0800, Tim wrote:

Does that high transom, dead transmission RV of yours have wood in its
hullsides or bottom? Well, hopefully if it does, it isn't balsa
"Balsa" = "Bayliner"

Quite a few supposedly high quality sailboats have also been built
with balsa cored hulls. Many of them have turned into expensive
junk.


I'm sure Chuck will tell us of the virtues of balsa as a core material.
I wouldn't even consider buying a boat with a balsa core. I also don't
buy into the boat broker b.s. that osmosis blistering is no big deal.
Those guys will do anything to move used boats. I don't want a boat
whose bottom is as pustuled and pockmarked as a $3.00 whore.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Tim wrote:
On Nov 4, 8:12 pm, HK wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:10:43 -0500, HK

Does that high transom, dead transmission RV of yours have wood in its
hullsides or bottom? Well, hopefully if it does, it isn't balsa

"Balsa" = "Bayliner"



When did Bayliner upgrade from cardboard coring? :}

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Gene Kearns wrote:
t. Hatteras hasn't been Hatteras since the High
Point, NC factory closed and the "Hatteras Collection" has "evolved"
to the point that it has as much in common with sportfishing as a
metrosexual does with a salt water tackle box.


OUCH, now that was below the belt, Hatteras may never recover from that
blow. ;)

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 08:23:55 -0800, Chuck Gould penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions. Is it possible that the same changes
that make the boat less "fishable" in your estimation might make it
better suited for cruising and exploring or some other purpose?

Unless Brunswick was lying through their teeth (which I find
imminently possible), their news releases at the time of purchase gave
the reason that they were targeting the sportfishing market.


Albemarle builds boats that range up to 40-soome feet in length, and
not all are intended exclusively for use by the weekend or retired
fisherman. It may be that in order to increase total overall appeal
and sales of the new model Albemarle decided to make it slightly less
specialized......don't know this for a fact, simply stating a
possibility.


Indeed, they have taken a local boat, built for local conditions, and
corporatized it to sell in a broader market.

To build a good case for a decline in quality I think it takes a lot
more than the appearance of a new hull design with different
characteristics.
Why not check out one of the new boats in person and see if fit,
finish,
hardware, workmanship aren't still up to traditional standards?

It was a boat designed for certain local conditions. It now,
regardless of fit and finish ranks little above the mongrel stage.

I'll
be getting underway on one of their new boats, just over 30-feet LOA,
in the next week or so.

Thus, it wouldn't be prudent to say anything disparaging about the
bread and butter, eh?

The brand doesn't have the long history in
this region that it enjoys back on the east coast,

The reason being, pre-Brunswick.... it wasn't designed for or marketed
to that region.


so I can't say that
I will be able to compare it knowledgeably with the pre-2005
produciton- but a pretty thorough at-the-dock examination of one of
the current boats a few months ago revealed no glaring defects or
cheap-cut aspects- I thought the boat was pretty impressive overall
and I am looking forward to the opportunity to learn even more about
it.

You might as well concede to Harry then, as you are making the
argument for him.

(The "Hatteras Collection" includes Hatteras, Cabo, and Albemarle. The
Harrell family sold to Brunswick in 2005).

Albemarle and Hatteras were originally designed as sport fishers for
the North Carolina coast. Hatteras hasn't been Hatteras since the High
Point, NC factory closed and the "Hatteras Collection" has "evolved"
to the point that it has as much in common with sportfishing as a
metrosexual does with a salt water tackle box.



What the hell would Chuck know about Atlantic Ocean sportfishing boats,
based upon an "at-the-dock" examination that "revealed no glaring
defects..." How would he know what a "glaring defect" on a sportfishing
boat might be?

Whenever a corporate conglomerate takes over a boat line, I'm reminded
of what happened to Harley-Davidson when it was taken over by AMF.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Capt John wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John


Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is
that the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be an
"Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what MBAs
and accountants produce.

Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that,
at that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage banker
in the country. We liked the company and its management a lot, so much
so that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief account exec and
writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the time, for about
$4.00 a share.

Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the founders
$35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We all cashed
in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few bucks and was
happy to do so.

Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone else,
after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very
competent staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared,
along with the service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs
turned the mortgage company into crap.

The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was about
to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of ONE
weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the FDIC's
blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
No MBAs involved.

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:
Capt John wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John


Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is
that the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be an
"Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what MBAs
and accountants produce.

Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that,
at that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage banker
in the country. We liked the company and its management a lot, so much
so that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief account exec and
writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the time, for about
$4.00 a share.

Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the founders
$35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We all cashed
in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few bucks and was
happy to do so.

Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone else,
after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very
competent staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared,
along with the service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs
turned the mortgage company into crap.

The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was about
to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of ONE
weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the FDIC's
blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
No MBAs involved.

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
it's edge.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Capt John wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John


Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is
that the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be
an "Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what
MBAs and accountants produce.

Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that,
at that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage
banker in the country. We liked the company and its management a lot,
so much so that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief
account exec and writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the
time, for about $4.00 a share.

Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the
founders $35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We
all cashed in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few
bucks and was happy to do so.

Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone
else, after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very
competent staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared,
along with the service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs
turned the mortgage company into crap.

The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was
about to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of
ONE weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the
FDIC's blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
No MBAs involved.

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
it's edge.



There are top-end sportfishing boats in just about every size category.
If I were in the market for a large Atlantic Ocean "battlewagon,"
though, I'd be visiting the independent Carolina builders.

There are some builders in the Maritime Provinces of Canada who build
some really serious fishing boats.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"HK" wrote in message
...


Whenever a corporate conglomerate takes over a boat line, I'm reminded of
what happened to Harley-Davidson when it was taken over by AMF.

Better yet is what happened to HD when it's employees bought it back.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Capt John wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John


Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is that
the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be an
"Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what MBAs
and accountants produce.

Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that, at
that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage banker in
the country. We liked the company and its management a lot, so much so
that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief account exec and
writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the time, for about
$4.00 a share.

Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the founders
$35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We all cashed
in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few bucks and was
happy to do so.

Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone else,
after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very competent
staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared, along with the
service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs turned the mortgage
company into crap.

The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was about
to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of ONE
weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the FDIC's
blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
No MBAs involved.

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
it's edge.



Jim Smith

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...


Jim Smith

Eisboch



Forgot the link:
http://www.jimsmithboats.net/HOME.HTML

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has
retained it's edge.



There are top-end sportfishing boats in just about every size category.
If I were in the market for a large Atlantic Ocean "battlewagon,"
though, I'd be visiting the independent Carolina builders.

There are some builders in the Maritime Provinces of Canada who build
some really serious fishing boats.

Are these custom boats or do they have a model line up of different size
sportfishing boats that one can see online or at a boat show? The
reason I ask is I normally think custom boats are more expensive than
similar boats using an existing mold and design.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Capt John wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John

Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is that
the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be an
"Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what MBAs
and accountants produce.

Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that, at
that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage banker in
the country. We liked the company and its management a lot, so much so
that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief account exec and
writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the time, for about
$4.00 a share.

Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the founders
$35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We all cashed
in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few bucks and was
happy to do so.

Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone else,
after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very competent
staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared, along with the
service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs turned the mortgage
company into crap.

The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was about
to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of ONE
weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the FDIC's
blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
No MBAs involved.

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.


Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
it's edge.



Jim Smith

Eisboch



Very very nice, and if you have to ask what the price is .........

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 4, 7:30 am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.

Where have you been, Harry?

Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.

I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

People often think that just because something is made by small
independents that it automatically means better craftmanship and
quality, but that just isn't always true. Larger companies have money
to use for R&D and testing, plus the tools to ensure quality control.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

Jim Smith

Eisboch



Forgot the link:
http://www.jimsmithboats.net/HOME.HTML

Eisboch



While these are really nice (and out of my league) boats, are they
really better than a similar equipped Hatteras? I was under the
impression that outside of the hull mold, Hatt's are really custom built
to the owners specs.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become
just another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has
retained it's edge.



There are top-end sportfishing boats in just about every size
category. If I were in the market for a large Atlantic Ocean
"battlewagon," though, I'd be visiting the independent Carolina builders.

There are some builders in the Maritime Provinces of Canada who build
some really serious fishing boats.

Are these custom boats or do they have a model line up of different size
sportfishing boats that one can see online or at a boat show? The
reason I ask is I normally think custom boats are more expensive than
similar boats using an existing mold and design.


In the larger sizes, most of the boats are pretty much custom even if an
existing mold is used or stretched or modified. And not all the boats
come out of molds.


There's a relatively new builder of larger custom glass boats...Mirage
something or other. Forty to 60 footers, with Bertram-like hulls in
their lineage. Lots of custom features, very nice. There's a fellow on a
boat discussion board who is having one built for him, and he's posted a
zillion good photos. I'd have to say they are the best looking (from
photos, anyway) glass battlewagons I have seen lately.

Most of the custom builders will have a lineup at the Miami show. Their
customers are glad to help them, so you'll see several owner boats
included at the show.

If you are a serious fisherman, you cannot evaluate a boat by seeing its
photos or specs on line. Even on a bitty boat like my new Parker,
showroom visits alone were not enough, at least not for me. I got the
dealer to arrange a "demo" with a customer who bought the identical hull
and engine combo a year earlier, and from that demo I concluded I did
not want the forward vee-seating he opted for. Fortunately, Parker is a
manufacturer who, within reason, will semi-custom its stock boats to
some degree.