Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:

Jim Smith

http://www.jimsmithboats.net/HOME.HTML

Eisboch

While these are really nice (and out of my league) boats, are they really
better than a similar equipped Hatteras?

In a word .... yes.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end
sportfishing boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going
to become just another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has
retained it's edge.



There are top-end sportfishing boats in just about every size
category. If I were in the market for a large Atlantic Ocean
"battlewagon," though, I'd be visiting the independent Carolina
builders.

There are some builders in the Maritime Provinces of Canada who build
some really serious fishing boats.

Are these custom boats or do they have a model line up of different
size sportfishing boats that one can see online or at a boat show?
The reason I ask is I normally think custom boats are more expensive
than similar boats using an existing mold and design.


In the larger sizes, most of the boats are pretty much custom even if an
existing mold is used or stretched or modified. And not all the boats
come out of molds.


There's a relatively new builder of larger custom glass boats...Mirage
something or other. Forty to 60 footers, with Bertram-like hulls in
their lineage. Lots of custom features, very nice. There's a fellow on a
boat discussion board who is having one built for him, and he's posted a
zillion good photos. I'd have to say they are the best looking (from
photos, anyway) glass battlewagons I have seen lately.

Most of the custom builders will have a lineup at the Miami show. Their
customers are glad to help them, so you'll see several owner boats
included at the show.

If you are a serious fisherman, you cannot evaluate a boat by seeing its
photos or specs on line. Even on a bitty boat like my new Parker,
showroom visits alone were not enough, at least not for me. I got the
dealer to arrange a "demo" with a customer who bought the identical hull
and engine combo a year earlier, and from that demo I concluded I did
not want the forward vee-seating he opted for. Fortunately, Parker is a
manufacturer who, within reason, will semi-custom its stock boats to
some degree.




I have always purchased a boat from a dealer who had the boats already
in the water for a demo or they could easily get them to the water for a
test ride. I thought it was normal for a test ride until I heard Chuck
and others talking about not having a test ride until your signature was
on the contract. I never asked for a test ride, unless I was seriously
considering the boat, but whenever i asked it for a demo, was never a
big deal.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:30 am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

People often think that just because something is made by small
independents that it automatically means better craftmanship and
quality, but that just isn't always true. Larger companies have money
to use for R&D and testing, plus the tools to ensure quality control.


Of course you are correct. I personally would hate to pay for a one off
car. After watching American Hotrod, I would seriously question the
quality of some of these smaller builders. I would assume it is very
similar in with small boat builders.





I wouldn't buy a motorcycle from any of the televised "chopper" show
shops, because it is obvious that the builders are not overly concerned
with the vagaries of metallurgy. Small boat building among the quality
builders is an entirely different proposition; the "flashboat" builders
may change everything every year, but the quality builders do not.

Parker has been building hulls for a long, long time. Most of the hulls
are very similar in design, no matter their length, and so are the
materials, though "thickness" varies. Same with hardware. Same with
assembly. Next year, Parker will introduce a 34-footer with twin 350-hp
Yamahas. I suspect the boat will be very competent.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:
Jim Smith

http://www.jimsmithboats.net/HOME.HTML

Eisboch
While these are really nice (and out of my league) boats, are they really
better than a similar equipped Hatteras?

In a word .... yes.

Eisboch



Could you please cut to the chase, you are beginning to sound like Chuck
with your verbose reply.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end
sportfishing boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is
going to become just another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.



Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has
retained it's edge.



There are top-end sportfishing boats in just about every size
category. If I were in the market for a large Atlantic Ocean
"battlewagon," though, I'd be visiting the independent Carolina
builders.

There are some builders in the Maritime Provinces of Canada who
build some really serious fishing boats.

Are these custom boats or do they have a model line up of different
size sportfishing boats that one can see online or at a boat show?
The reason I ask is I normally think custom boats are more expensive
than similar boats using an existing mold and design.


In the larger sizes, most of the boats are pretty much custom even if
an existing mold is used or stretched or modified. And not all the
boats come out of molds.


There's a relatively new builder of larger custom glass boats...Mirage
something or other. Forty to 60 footers, with Bertram-like hulls in
their lineage. Lots of custom features, very nice. There's a fellow on
a boat discussion board who is having one built for him, and he's
posted a zillion good photos. I'd have to say they are the best
looking (from photos, anyway) glass battlewagons I have seen lately.

Most of the custom builders will have a lineup at the Miami show.
Their customers are glad to help them, so you'll see several owner
boats included at the show.

If you are a serious fisherman, you cannot evaluate a boat by seeing
its photos or specs on line. Even on a bitty boat like my new Parker,
showroom visits alone were not enough, at least not for me. I got the
dealer to arrange a "demo" with a customer who bought the identical
hull and engine combo a year earlier, and from that demo I concluded I
did not want the forward vee-seating he opted for. Fortunately, Parker
is a manufacturer who, within reason, will semi-custom its stock boats
to some degree.




I have always purchased a boat from a dealer who had the boats already
in the water for a demo or they could easily get them to the water for a
test ride. I thought it was normal for a test ride until I heard Chuck
and others talking about not having a test ride until your signature was
on the contract. I never asked for a test ride, unless I was seriously
considering the boat, but whenever i asked it for a demo, was never a
big deal.



Well, it may be a problem on "broker" boats, but I've never had a
problem arranging a demo on a new boat. Even with the one I just boat,
the dealer did not have one in stock, but made a call and arranged a
ride with an owner. Even better, because the boat was a season old and I
could see how it was doing.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:30 am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

People often think that just because something is made by small
independents that it automatically means better craftmanship and
quality, but that just isn't always true. Larger companies have money
to use for R&D and testing, plus the tools to ensure quality control.


Of course you are correct. I personally would hate to pay for a one
off car. After watching American Hotrod, I would seriously question
the quality of some of these smaller builders. I would assume it is
very similar in with small boat builders.





I wouldn't buy a motorcycle from any of the televised "chopper" show
shops, because it is obvious that the builders are not overly concerned
with the vagaries of metallurgy. Small boat building among the quality
builders is an entirely different proposition; the "flashboat" builders
may change everything every year, but the quality builders do not.

Parker has been building hulls for a long, long time. Most of the hulls
are very similar in design, no matter their length, and so are the
materials, though "thickness" varies. Same with hardware. Same with
assembly. Next year, Parker will introduce a 34-footer with twin 350-hp
Yamahas. I suspect the boat will be very competent.




I don't think I have seen a Parker on my little body of water, but Grady
Whites are very common. While I would not consider them a small boat
builder, they are not part of a conglomerate. On the lake, they have
clubs who will haul their boats to the ocean for group fishing
tournaments.

By the same token, there are many conglomerate car mfg'ers including BMW
and Lexus who have managed to build a car to the masses and keep quality
at a very high level.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:46:48 -0500, HK penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


I wouldn't buy a motorcycle from any of the televised "chopper" show
shops, because it is obvious that the builders are not overly concerned
with the vagaries of metallurgy.

....and their impassioned love affair with bondo...


I just love the way they torch those frames, and bang on them with the
hammers if stuff doesn't fit just right, or grind off a support if it is
in the way. Chain doesn't line up properly? Use a spacer.

No thanks.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:30 am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them
were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and
with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn
them
into something less.

People often think that just because something is made by small
independents that it automatically means better craftmanship and
quality, but that just isn't always true. Larger companies have money
to use for R&D and testing, plus the tools to ensure quality control.


Of course you are correct. I personally would hate to pay for a one
off car. After watching American Hotrod, I would seriously question
the quality of some of these smaller builders. I would assume it is
very similar in with small boat builders.





I wouldn't buy a motorcycle from any of the televised "chopper" show
shops, because it is obvious that the builders are not overly
concerned with the vagaries of metallurgy. Small boat building among
the quality builders is an entirely different proposition; the
"flashboat" builders may change everything every year, but the quality
builders do not.

Parker has been building hulls for a long, long time. Most of the
hulls are very similar in design, no matter their length, and so are
the materials, though "thickness" varies. Same with hardware. Same
with assembly. Next year, Parker will introduce a 34-footer with twin
350-hp Yamahas. I suspect the boat will be very competent.




I don't think I have seen a Parker on my little body of water, but Grady
Whites are very common. While I would not consider them a small boat
builder, they are not part of a conglomerate. On the lake, they have
clubs who will haul their boats to the ocean for group fishing tournaments.

By the same token, there are many conglomerate car mfg'ers including BMW
and Lexus who have managed to build a car to the masses and keep quality
at a very high level.




Gradys are great boats, very similar in construction if not in looks to
Parkers. I'd buy one, but they are just "too fancy" for my style of
feeeeshing. I have no idea why Gradys would be big sellers on Lake
Lanier or any other small inland lake.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 2:51?am, HK wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:32:58 -0800, Tim wrote:

Does that high transom, dead transmission RV of yours have wood in its
hullsides or bottom? Well, hopefully if it does, it isn't balsa
"Balsa" = "Bayliner"

Quite a few supposedly high quality sailboats have also been built
with balsa cored hulls. Many of them have turned into expensive
junk.

I'm sure Chuck will tell us of the virtues of balsa as a core material.
I wouldn't even consider buying a boat with a balsa core. I also don't
buy into the boat broker b.s. that osmosis blistering is no big deal.
Those guys will do anything to move used boats. I don't want a boat
whose bottom is as pustuled and pockmarked as a $3.00 whore.

In specific locations, balsa is a fine coring material. I don't like
to see it below the waterline. It has been used very successfully for
decks, cabin tops, etc. Balsa is rapidly being replaced by better
materials that won't absorb water, and some of the most respected
brand names core the entire hull. Cabin soles are commonly cored with
Nidacor these days, but that was an application where balsa was
commonly used and seldom a problem in the past.

They overriding principle is that a boat should be well made, with
structural integrity that exceeds the most stringent demands ever
likely to be placed upon it. You encounter competing theories about
how best to go about this, but it is certainly possible to use more
than a single material and more than a single technique to manufacture
a quality hull.

(One of the more humorous marketing stories locally includes two firms
who go after one another tooth and nail pretty regularly. One of the
firms offers boats with a cored hull, the other does not.....*except*
the very largest boat built by the second firm, something retailing
for between $1-2mm does include a cored hull. The salespeople at the
primarily non-cored dealership are quick to condemn cored hulls as
unsafe, unseaworthy, and likely to require catastrophic expense to
maintain and repair- after all 99% of their business is on the smaller
boats and not the flagship. The salespeople at the dealership offering
boats with cored hulls simply keep a few copies of their competitor's
brochure for the megayacht model and when the customers show up and
begin remarking how the guys at Brand X condemned cored hulls, they
simply produce the brochure and say, "If it's good enough for their
top of the line model, it's good enough for all of our customers
regardless of what they decide to budget for a boat.")


With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.

As for blisters, here are some comments from a marine surveyor who
hates brokers and the marine industry in general almost as much as you
do. :-)

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/BuyingBlisterBoat.htm


It's fine to say you personally prefer to avoid a blistered boat. You
are unlikely to ever have blisters, as you buy your boats new and the
last one logged less than 120 hours in the water over a four year
period of time. But if you want to insist that the common industry
consensus that cosmetic blistering doesn't particularly effect the
structural inegrity of a hull is incorrect, something stronger than
dismissing that consensus as mere "broker BS" would be in order.

By the way, the use of one of the non-glass fiber components in modern
layups ( a layer of vinylester roving under the gelcoat) has
significantly reduced the propensity for most boats to blister.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 2:51?am, HK wrote:

I'm sure Chuck will tell us of the virtues of balsa as a core material.
I wouldn't even consider buying a boat with a balsa core. I also don't
buy into the boat broker b.s. that osmosis blistering is no big deal.
Those guys will do anything to move used boats. I don't want a boat
whose bottom is as pustuled and pockmarked as a $3.00 whore.

In specific locations, balsa is a fine coring material. I don't like
to see it below the waterline. It has been used very successfully for
decks, cabin tops, etc. Balsa is rapidly being replaced by better
materials that won't absorb water, and some of the most respected
brand names core the entire hull. Cabin soles are commonly cored with
Nidacor these days, but that was an application where balsa was
commonly used and seldom a problem in the past.


You get water entry anywhere near balsa and the balsa starts to rot.
Simple as that. Got balsa under your fiberglass deck? Got a joint
anywhere that lets in water? Loose machine screw not properly sealed?
You got balsa rot under your fiberglass deck.


They overriding principle is that a boat should be well made, with
structural integrity that exceeds the most stringent demands ever
likely to be placed upon it.

Yeah, well, stuff happens out in the real world.



As for blisters, here are some comments from a marine surveyor who
hates brokers and the marine industry in general almost as much as you
do. :-)

As I said, if you want to buy a used boat with as many pustules and
pockmocks on her bottom as a $3 whore...go for it.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...


With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.


Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...

With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.


Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Eisboch




I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:

"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."

Right, of course.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:02:00 -0500, " JimH" ask penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
. ..
HK wrote:
Capt John wrote:
On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
the middle class out of boating.

If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
the money and run.

John

Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is that
the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be an
"Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what MBAs
and accountants produce.

Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that, at
that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage banker in
the country. We liked the company and its management a lot, so much so
that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief account exec and
writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the time, for about
$4.00 a share.

Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the founders
$35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We all cashed
in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few bucks and was
happy to do so.

Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone else,
after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very competent
staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared, along with the
service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs turned the mortgage
company into crap.

The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was about
to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of ONE
weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the FDIC's
blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
No MBAs involved.

Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
another nameplate.

Sad to see, whatever the reasons.


Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
it's edge.

Tiara

http://www.tiarayachts.com/Brix?pageID=168


It is sorta hard to take a "sportfisher" made in Michigan
seriously.... and from the number I see around here, I must not be the
only person to have that opinion.

Maybe it does great in Michigan... you just see very few of them
here....

Local boats are favored, because over the decades they have been honed
to perfection for local conditions and uses. Like Albemarle, corporate
boats are homogenized and rendered ho-hum by the bean counters that
are looking for the package most salable to the masses. The boats will
lose their local edge.

Most of us are local boaters or cruisers. If you cruise, you buy a
cruiser. If you trailer, unless you are the nut case that used to post
here that thought trailering 2000 miles each way was cool, you are
probably going to buy with respect to your local conditions.



I have a friend with a large Tiara. Damn nice boat, but not a sportfisher.

My first sailboat on the Bay was from the wonderful folks who brought us
Tiara. S2 9.2. Just under 30', and a wide-bodied slowpoke. But it was
easy to sail.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 1:41 pm, HK wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:30 am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn them
into something less.

People often think that just because something is made by small
independents that it automatically means better craftmanship and
quality, but that just isn't always true. Larger companies have money
to use for R&D and testing, plus the tools to ensure quality control.

It's entirely dependent on the builder.

Yep, there are plenty of crappy small family owned manufacturers out
there.

The "larger companies" in the
boat business seem to blow their R&D and testing budgets on ways to make
their boats cheaper.

That's just not true or pure speculation.

I prefer fiberglass boats built in the old, traditional ways.

I like fiberglass just fine, but am also not afraid of other systems
of hull manufacter.

Proper
mold prep, hand layup of the proper cloths by experienced workers,
correct amounts of chemicals properly applied, enough time in the molds,

Bingo, and that's where a good computerized system can help a great
deal.

quality inspection by old guys who know what to look for,

I'd rather the inspection process involve being able to tell, for
instance, whether or not there are any voids in the hull material,
than rely on some old guy's poor vision.

heavy
hardware, heavy construction, et cetera.

Heavy doesn't always mean better, or stronger.


Hell, a Parker family member
personally took and forwarded to me photos of my boats every couple of
days while they were under construction.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And just what did that do for the quality of the boat?

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 11:30?am, "Eisboch" wrote:


Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Eisboch


No problem for the trawler class- but as we know there is a point at
which slowing down a planing hull becomes less economical than staying
up on step. If the boat is slightly lighter it may be able to plane
more quickly and stay on plane more efficiently.

Offshore there is no replacement for displacement- but if the family
bow rider destined to zoom around Lake Whatchamacallit on warm summer
afternoons and in fair weather can be lightened up a few hundred
pounds without sacrificing structural integrty- that's probably a good
thing.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
HK wrote:
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:30 am, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 3, 4:29?pm, HK wrote:
Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another
famous
line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
Where have you been, Harry?
Brunswick has owned Albermarle for quite while now. Basically, they
are built by the same group that makes Hatteras. Many of the upper
tier
trademarks built by Brunswick are pretty darn good boats.
I'm sure they were better boats when the companies that built them
were
independent. The newest model Albemarle, for example, is wider and
with
less deadrise than the model it will be replacing. That's corporate
conglomerate think for you...take a line of fishing boats and turn
them
into something less.

People often think that just because something is made by small
independents that it automatically means better craftmanship and
quality, but that just isn't always true. Larger companies have money
to use for R&D and testing, plus the tools to ensure quality control.


Of course you are correct. I personally would hate to pay for a one
off car. After watching American Hotrod, I would seriously
question the quality of some of these smaller builders. I would
assume it is very similar in with small boat builders.





I wouldn't buy a motorcycle from any of the televised "chopper" show
shops, because it is obvious that the builders are not overly
concerned with the vagaries of metallurgy. Small boat building among
the quality builders is an entirely different proposition; the
"flashboat" builders may change everything every year, but the
quality builders do not.

Parker has been building hulls for a long, long time. Most of the
hulls are very similar in design, no matter their length, and so are
the materials, though "thickness" varies. Same with hardware. Same
with assembly. Next year, Parker will introduce a 34-footer with twin
350-hp Yamahas. I suspect the boat will be very competent.




I don't think I have seen a Parker on my little body of water, but
Grady Whites are very common. While I would not consider them a small
boat builder, they are not part of a conglomerate. On the lake, they
have clubs who will haul their boats to the ocean for group fishing
tournaments.

By the same token, there are many conglomerate car mfg'ers including
BMW and Lexus who have managed to build a car to the masses and keep
quality at a very high level.




Gradys are great boats, very similar in construction if not in looks to
Parkers. I'd buy one, but they are just "too fancy" for my style of
feeeeshing. I have no idea why Gradys would be big sellers on Lake
Lanier or any other small inland lake.


i don't think many people who boat exclusively on Lake Lanier would buy
a Grady, but there are many people who boat on Lake Lanier who will
regularly trailer their boats 4 hours to the Georgia or SC coast.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 5, 11:30?am, "Eisboch" wrote:


Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth
of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Eisboch


No problem for the trawler class- but as we know there is a point at
which slowing down a planing hull becomes less economical than staying
up on step. If the boat is slightly lighter it may be able to plane
more quickly and stay on plane more efficiently.

Offshore there is no replacement for displacement- but if the family
bow rider destined to zoom around Lake Whatchamacallit on warm summer
afternoons and in fair weather can be lightened up a few hundred
pounds without sacrificing structural integrty- that's probably a good
thing.


Agreed. I thought we were talking about high end sportsfishing boats. To
me, that means an offshore boat, but I hear you.

I learned a lesson about the newer, lighter sportsfishing boats with the Egg
Harbor I had.
Beautiful boat ... well built ... but would loosen your fillings on a rough
outing unless you slowed way down.

I guess that's why I still like the Navigator. Not fast, but fast enough
for fuel efficient cruising (which is my interest) and a soft, comfortable
ride in some fairly heavy seas.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
. ..


i don't think many people who boat exclusively on Lake Lanier would buy a
Grady, but there are many people who boat on Lake Lanier who will
regularly trailer their boats 4 hours to the Georgia or SC coast.


Just watched a news report. Not too many people boating on Lake Lanier ....
period.

Back to Gradys. They are very popular up here in the northeast. I think
there are more of them around than any other manufacturer including Boston
Whaler. There's a large Grady dealer here in my hometown who stocks and
sells a lot of them.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:28:39 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Albemarle and Hatteras were originally designed as sport fishers for
the North Carolina coast. Hatteras hasn't been Hatteras since the High
Point, NC factory closed and the "Hatteras Collection" has "evolved"
to the point that it has as much in common with sportfishing as a
metrosexual does with a salt water tackle box.

ROTFL!!!

You do make a good point though - the Hatteras line is definetly not
what it used to be in terms of style and function.

I don't know about NC, but there is a thriving business up in this
area with older sport fishers and the refurbishment of same.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 13:10:02 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Eisboch" wrote in message
m...


Jim Smith

Forgot the link:
http://www.jimsmithboats.net/HOME.HTML

That looks supiciously like a Viking hull.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 8:58?am, HK wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 08:23:55 -0800, Chuck Gould penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Why would every boat in succession always have to be narrower and with
a deeper V than previous models? Perhaps the new model is intended for
slightly different conditions. Is it possible that the same changes
that make the boat less "fishable" in your estimation might make it
better suited for cruising and exploring or some other purpose?

Unless Brunswick was lying through their teeth (which I find
imminently possible), their news releases at the time of purchase gave
the reason that they were targeting the sportfishing market.

Albemarle builds boats that range up to 40-soome feet in length, and
not all are intended exclusively for use by the weekend or retired
fisherman. It may be that in order to increase total overall appeal
and sales of the new model Albemarle decided to make it slightly less
specialized......don't know this for a fact, simply stating a
possibility.

Indeed, they have taken a local boat, built for local conditions, and
corporatized it to sell in a broader market.

To build a good case for a decline in quality I think it takes a lot
more than the appearance of a new hull design with different
characteristics.
Why not check out one of the new boats in person and see if fit,
finish,
hardware, workmanship aren't still up to traditional standards?

It was a boat designed for certain local conditions. It now,
regardless of fit and finish ranks little above the mongrel stage.

I'll
be getting underway on one of their new boats, just over 30-feet LOA,
in the next week or so.

Thus, it wouldn't be prudent to say anything disparaging about the
bread and butter, eh?

The brand doesn't have the long history in
this region that it enjoys back on the east coast,

The reason being, pre-Brunswick.... it wasn't designed for or marketed
to that region.

so I can't say that
I will be able to compare it knowledgeably with the pre-2005
produciton- but a pretty thorough at-the-dock examination of one of
the current boats a few months ago revealed no glaring defects or
cheap-cut aspects- I thought the boat was pretty impressive overall
and I am looking forward to the opportunity to learn even more about
it.

You might as well concede to Harry then, as you are making the
argument for him.

(The "Hatteras Collection" includes Hatteras, Cabo, and Albemarle. The
Harrell family sold to Brunswick in 2005).

Albemarle and Hatteras were originally designed as sport fishers for
the North Carolina coast. Hatteras hasn't been Hatteras since the High
Point, NC factory closed and the "Hatteras Collection" has "evolved"
to the point that it has as much in common with sportfishing as a
metrosexual does with a salt water tackle box.

What the hell would Chuck know about Atlantic Ocean sportfishing boats,
based upon an "at-the-dock" examination that "revealed no glaring
defects..." How would he know what a "glaring defect" on a sportfishing
boat might be?

Whenever a corporate conglomerate takes over a boat line, I'm reminded
of what happened to Harley-Davidson when it was taken over by AMF.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Once a boat is taken out of the Atlantic Ocean, and isn't being used
for sportfishing in the Atlantic Ocean, it's no longer limited to (or
specialized for) use in the Atlantc Ocean or for sportfishing. Then it
becomes "a boat", which is how I regard it.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:47:06 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Eisboch wrote:
"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:
Jim Smith

http://www.jimsmithboats.net/HOME.HTML

Eisboch
While these are really nice (and out of my league) boats, are they really
better than a similar equipped Hatteras?

In a word .... yes.

Could you please cut to the chase, you are beginning to sound like Chuck
with your verbose reply.

ROTFL!!!

I had the same reaction. :)

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 11:35?am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
roups.com...

With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.

Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Eisboch

I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:

"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."

Right, of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm sure you consider Hinckley a piece of crap. None of their lobster
or picnic style boats would ever compare to yours, I'm certain of
that.

If you might be interested in a general description of how a well
respected E Coast boat is built, follow this link:

http://hinckleyyachts.com/home.html

Select "Under the Skin", and then select item 5 on the illustration.

Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:10:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Back to Gradys. They are very popular up here in the northeast. I think
there are more of them around than any other manufacturer including Boston
Whaler. There's a large Grady dealer here in my hometown who stocks and
sells a lot of them.

I have never understood the attaction to Gradys. I think they are
ugly myself fully recognizing that beauty is in the eye of the
beholder.

Having said that, I also recognize that they are solid boats with a
great reputation (slightly overstated, but then what isn't?) and built
to last.

They are still ugly.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:05:21 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Nov 5, 11:30?am, "Eisboch" wrote:


Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth
of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Eisboch


No problem for the trawler class- but as we know there is a point at
which slowing down a planing hull becomes less economical than staying
up on step. If the boat is slightly lighter it may be able to plane
more quickly and stay on plane more efficiently.

Offshore there is no replacement for displacement- but if the family
bow rider destined to zoom around Lake Whatchamacallit on warm summer
afternoons and in fair weather can be lightened up a few hundred
pounds without sacrificing structural integrty- that's probably a good
thing.


Agreed. I thought we were talking about high end sportsfishing boats. To
me, that means an offshore boat, but I hear you.

I learned a lesson about the newer, lighter sportsfishing boats with the Egg
Harbor I had.
Beautiful boat ... well built ... but would loosen your fillings on a rough
outing unless you slowed way down.

I guess that's why I still like the Navigator. Not fast, but fast enough
for fuel efficient cruising (which is my interest) and a soft, comfortable
ride in some fairly heavy seas.

And it doesn't have a low transom.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:10:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Back to Gradys. They are very popular up here in the northeast. I think
there are more of them around than any other manufacturer including Boston
Whaler. There's a large Grady dealer here in my hometown who stocks and
sells a lot of them.

I have never understood the attaction to Gradys. I think they are
ugly myself fully recognizing that beauty is in the eye of the
beholder.

Having said that, I also recognize that they are solid boats with a
great reputation (slightly overstated, but then what isn't?) and built
to last.

They are still ugly.

Gradys and Sea Ox. Stout boats, take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
I swear they were designed by the same person.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:32:38 -0800, Chuck Gould
wrote:

Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?

I'll admit it right up front - I had my doubts about vacuum bagging
with foam core up and until I saw the process being done.

I'm convinced now that it's a pretty good method given the proper
materials in the manufacturing process. In my opinion, which matters
little I realize, it's a better method than the Ranger hand laid
glass, foam fill method.

Stratos has been using the technique for a while using Kevlar/Carbon
composite weave and those boats are tough.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:48:59 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:10:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Back to Gradys. They are very popular up here in the northeast. I think
there are more of them around than any other manufacturer including Boston
Whaler. There's a large Grady dealer here in my hometown who stocks and
sells a lot of them.

I have never understood the attaction to Gradys. I think they are
ugly myself fully recognizing that beauty is in the eye of the
beholder.

Having said that, I also recognize that they are solid boats with a
great reputation (slightly overstated, but then what isn't?) and built
to last.

They are still ugly.

Gradys and Sea Ox. Stout boats, take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
I swear they were designed by the same person.

I would tend to agree.

One of the guys in my club has a 26 Grady (I think it's 26) and we've
been out on Stellwagon with it in the winter for cod. It's a stout
boat no doubt about it.

Sea Ox is a great boat too, but ugly as sin.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:35?am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.
Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.
Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.
Eisboch
I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:

"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."

Right, of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm sure you consider Hinckley a piece of crap. None of their lobster
or picnic style boats would ever compare to yours, I'm certain of
that.

If you might be interested in a general description of how a well
respected E Coast boat is built, follow this link:

http://hinckleyyachts.com/home.html

Select "Under the Skin", and then select item 5 on the illustration.

Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?




I thought we were discussing sal****er fishing boats.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:10:05 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Back to Gradys. They are very popular up here in the northeast. I think
there are more of them around than any other manufacturer including Boston
Whaler. There's a large Grady dealer here in my hometown who stocks and
sells a lot of them.

I have never understood the attaction to Gradys. I think they are
ugly myself fully recognizing that beauty is in the eye of the
beholder.

Having said that, I also recognize that they are solid boats with a
great reputation (slightly overstated, but then what isn't?) and built
to last.

They are still ugly.

You haven't seen the metalflake, glittered grady? Just for guys like you.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:32:38 -0800, Chuck Gould
wrote:

Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?

I'll admit it right up front - I had my doubts about vacuum bagging
with foam core up and until I saw the process being done.

I'm convinced now that it's a pretty good method given the proper
materials in the manufacturing process. In my opinion, which matters
little I realize, it's a better method than the Ranger hand laid
glass, foam fill method.

Stratos has been using the technique for a while using Kevlar/Carbon
composite weave and those boats are tough.


I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:30:30 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.

Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.

Here, here...

Spoken like a true Grand Banks owner. :-)

When the going is tough,

we're all going at the same speed,

except for the guys who are not going at all,

low transom folk and the like.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:32:38 -0800, Chuck Gould
wrote:

Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?

Of course, unless I could afford a Hinckley. That would make them a
lot better.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:05:21 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

I learned a lesson about the newer, lighter sportsfishing boats with the Egg
Harbor I had.
Beautiful boat ... well built ... but would loosen your fillings on a rough
outing unless you slowed way down.

Shuddagotta Bertram, Cadillac ride all the way. We loved our 33 but
it was just too small and too fuel inefficient for the kind of
retirement cruising we wanted to do. A 46 sportfish would have been
nice but they don't live nearly as well as a GB, and they burn 2 or 3
gallons per mile.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:46:48 -0500, HK wrote:

Next year, Parker will introduce a 34-footer with twin 350-hp
Yamahas. I suspect the boat will be very competent.

It will certainly be good at burning fuel, that's a given.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 15:05:21 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

I learned a lesson about the newer, lighter sportsfishing boats with the Egg
Harbor I had.
Beautiful boat ... well built ... but would loosen your fillings on a rough
outing unless you slowed way down.

Shuddagotta Bertram, Cadillac ride all the way. We loved our 33 but
it was just too small and too fuel inefficient for the kind of
retirement cruising we wanted to do. A 46 sportfish would have been
nice but they don't live nearly as well as a GB, and they burn 2 or 3
gallons per mile.


There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 1:33?pm, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:35?am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
egroups.com...
With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.
Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.
Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.
Eisboch
I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:

"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."

Right, of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm sure you consider Hinckley a piece of crap. None of their lobster
or picnic style boats would ever compare to yours, I'm certain of
that.

If you might be interested in a general description of how a well
respected E Coast boat is built, follow this link:

http://hinckleyyachts.com/home.html

Select "Under the Skin", and then select item 5 on the illustration.

Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?

I thought we were discussing sal****er fishing boats.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought I was responding to your comment that my remark (about
modern composite construction offering some opportunities to improve
upon traditional hand rolled rove and resin) "pegged the Bullship-o-
meter" and was straight off the PR desk. My response consists of an
observation that Hinckley, normally considered among today's finest
boat builders, uses a "composite", rather than hand rolled hull. No
bullship.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:46:48 -0500, HK wrote:

Next year, Parker will introduce a 34-footer with twin 350-hp
Yamahas. I suspect the boat will be very competent.

It will certainly be good at burning fuel, that's a given.


Absolutely, although 700 hp is about the norm for an offshore sportfish
boat of that size. The engines will be about $18,000 each through
Parker, I would guess. That would be the fully rigged price. $36,000 for
the pair. I wonder what a pair of new 350 hp diesels, fully rigged,
with transmissions, goes for these days? Let's say...$80,000+, or a
$44,000 difference. It's going to take a hell of a lot of diesel
efficiency to make that up!

Of course, the diesels should last longer and hopefully have liners so
they can be rebuilt. But...what happens when a transmission goes?

It may be all moot, anyway, with fuel prices continuing to rise as they
are. I predict boat sales are heading for the crapper.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:33?pm, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:35?am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.
Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.
Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.
Eisboch
I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:
"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."
Right, of course.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm sure you consider Hinckley a piece of crap. None of their lobster
or picnic style boats would ever compare to yours, I'm certain of
that.
If you might be interested in a general description of how a well
respected E Coast boat is built, follow this link:
http://hinckleyyachts.com/home.html
Select "Under the Skin", and then select item 5 on the illustration.
Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?
I thought we were discussing sal****er fishing boats.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought I was responding to your comment that my remark (about
modern composite construction offering some opportunities to improve
upon traditional hand rolled rove and resin) "pegged the Bullship-o-
meter" and was straight off the PR desk. My response consists of an
observation that Hinckley, normally considered among today's finest
boat builders, uses a "composite", rather than hand rolled hull. No
bullship.



Chuck...I have no problems with "modern" composite hulls, so long as the
composite does not include foamboard or balsa.