Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:01:33 -0500, HK wrote:

There are top-end sportfishing boats in just about every size category.
If I were in the market for a large Atlantic Ocean "battlewagon,"
though, I'd be visiting the independent Carolina builders.

You bet. There are a number of very high quality custom sportfish
being built just a few miles south of us in Wanchese, NC. These guys
have a lot of experience and build a top notch product at a very high
end price. You'd never suspect it just driving down the road looking
at the nondescript building sheds.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:18:44 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Are these custom boats or do they have a model line up of different size
sportfishing boats that one can see online or at a boat show? The
reason I ask is I normally think custom boats are more expensive than
similar boats using an existing mold and design.

You generally start out by hiring a naval architect/designer. After
they come up with a design you like, they will typically help you find
a builder. It's a bit like contracting for a custom house.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:45:29 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

I have always purchased a boat from a dealer who had the boats already
in the water for a demo or they could easily get them to the water for a
test ride. I thought it was normal for a test ride until I heard Chuck
and others talking about not having a test ride until your signature was
on the contract.

The dealers would like it that way of course but if they are hungry
for business will be glad to take you out for a quick spin as long as
they think you're a good prospect. It's important to look and act the
part if you want attention from a dealer. They have no interest in
wasting time on tire kickers or joy riders so they develop skill at
screening customers, just like the real estate folks.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:44:47 -0500, HK wrote:

My first sailboat on the Bay was from the wonderful folks who brought us
Tiara. S2 9.2. Just under 30', and a wide-bodied slowpoke. But it was
easy to sail.

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:37:28 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
it's edge.

Regionally...commensurate with what Albemarle was?

Grady-White, Parker, Regulator

There's a decent looking Carolina 28 docked across the marina from us.
I assume they are made somewhere around here.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:42:14 -0500, " JimH" ask wrote:

Why? Is there no sport fishing on any other body of water other than the
Atlantic Ocean?

It goes without saying. :)

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:19:24 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:18:44 -0500, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

Are these custom boats or do they have a model line up of different size
sportfishing boats that one can see online or at a boat show? The
reason I ask is I normally think custom boats are more expensive than
similar boats using an existing mold and design.

You generally start out by hiring a naval architect/designer. After
they come up with a design you like, they will typically help you find
a builder. It's a bit like contracting for a custom house.

I was just reading an article about this - can't remember where.

It involved a custom builder in LA. What was interesting is that
these boats are spec'd out and almost always sold to another party
other than the original client even before they are built.

Apparently for more money than the boats originally cost.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

--Vic

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:10:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

I've heard that before, but I'm not at all sure that it is true with
closed cell foam.

I saw a 12 year old Ranger 318 VS when it was being cut up and the
foam flotation looked brand new.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:10:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.
Why?
I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

I've heard that before, but I'm not at all sure that it is true with
closed cell foam.

I saw a 12 year old Ranger 318 VS when it was being cut up and the
foam flotation looked brand new.

Fresh water bass boats don't take much of a pounding. Besides, they have
low sides. Further, we're not talking about flotation.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.
Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

--Vic

There's that, there's the thinner skins on each side, there's the water
that can get between the foam and the skins when the skins work...

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 16:42:14 -0500, " JimH" ask penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

|
|"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
| On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 14:02:00 -0500, " JimH" ask penned the
| following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
|
|
|"Reginald P. Smithers III" wrote in message
om...
| HK wrote:
| Capt John wrote:
| On Nov 3, 6:29 pm, HK wrote:
| Just read that Albemarle was bought out by Brunswick. Another famous
| line goes in the crapper. Cabo was sold last year. Sad to see the
| independents disappearing, since they build the best boats.
|
| I can't say I blame them, with the price of fuel, the future is very
| cloudy. Powerboating was very much a middle class activity. Sure, the
| really big boats are owned by the wealthy, but the vast majority of
| boat owners are middle class. Crazy fuel prices are starting to push
| the middle class out of boating.
|
| If I owned a business that was very much dependant on middle class
| incomes. And the business started to change, pushing the operating
| cost of my product beyond that which my customer base can afford,
| driving increasing numbers of those customers away. And someone came
| along and offered me a good price for that business, I'd probably take
| the money and run.
|
| John
|
|
| Oh, I don't *blame* Albemarle for selling out, but the likelihood is
| that
| the product that emerges in the years to come will no longer be an
| "Albemarle." It'll be the product of the MBAs and accountants, and
| therefore the probability is, it will be crap, because that is what
| MBAs
| and accountants produce.
|
| Some decades ago, an ad and pr company I worked for had a client that,
| at
| that time, was the largest and most successful FHA-VA mortgage banker
| in
| the country. We liked the company and its management a lot, so much so
| that the owner of the company and I (I was the chief account exec and
| writer) bought some stock. It was traded O-T-C at the time, for about
| $4.00 a share.
|
| Lo and behold, a giant NY-based financial institution offer the
| founders
| $35 a share for the stock. Too good an offer to turn down. We all
| cashed
| in to the limits of our holdings, of course. I made a few bucks and was
| happy to do so.
|
| Well, the new owners simply didn't understand the market for the
| acquisition and in a few years, it sold the company off to someone
| else,
| after most of its value (which was mainly in good will and very
| competent
| staff in about 20 U.S. markets). The company disappeared, along with
| the
| service it had provided. The big institution's MBAs turned the mortgage
| company into crap.
|
| The family that started the mortgage company, the guys who cashed out,
| stayed active in business. A large regional bank in our market was
| about
| to be shut down by the FDIC, and the guys, over the course of ONE
| weekend, put together enough cash to take over the bank with the FDIC's
| blessing. Bank opened Monday with a new name and new management.
| No MBAs involved.
|
| Hatteras no longer is a premier manufacturer of top-end sportfishing
| boats. Cabo no longer has its edge. Albemarle is going to become just
| another nameplate.
|
| Sad to see, whatever the reasons.
|
|
|
| Who is the premier mfg'er of top-end sportfishing boats who has retained
| it's edge.
|
|
|Tiara
|
|http://www.tiarayachts.com/Brix?pageID=168
|
|
| It is sorta hard to take a "sportfisher" made in Michigan
| seriously.... and from the number I see around here, I must not be the
| only person to have that opinion.
|
|Why? Is there no sport fishing on any other body of water other than the
|Atlantic Ocean?

I've heard rumors of some small amount engaged in on the Pacific, but
have always been leery of same. Sort of like tostitos in Kansas.....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
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Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:44:47 -0500, HK wrote:

My first sailboat on the Bay was from the wonderful folks who brought us
Tiara. S2 9.2. Just under 30', and a wide-bodied slowpoke. But it was
easy to sail.

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.


It was only a year old when I bought it and as I posted, it was easy to
sail, and fun, too.

Sitting in an oversized old tub of a GB is not my kind of boating. It
wasn't then, and it isn't now.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:41 -0500, HK wrote:

Absolutely, although 700 hp is about the norm for an offshore sportfish
boat of that size. The engines will be about $18,000 each through
Parker, I would guess. That would be the fully rigged price. $36,000 for
the pair. I wonder what a pair of new 350 hp diesels, fully rigged,
with transmissions, goes for these days? Let's say...$80,000+, or a
$44,000 difference. It's going to take a hell of a lot of diesel
efficiency to make that up!

Well, lets run the numbers just for the fun of it. Your price
estimate is in the ball park so let's figure out what the payback is
over 5 years or so. Assuming the diesels will return 50% of their
extra cost on resale, the number to meet is $22,000.

With the pair of big OBs the boat will burn about 50 gph, 25 gph with
diesels. Gas at the marina is about $4, diesel about $3, cost per
hour $200 gas, $75 diesel, $125 delta.

$22,000 divided by $125 is 176 hours. That is the break even point.
If you use the boat more than 176 hours you are money ahead on
operating costs alone. Factor in the reliability and longevity of
diesels and you are way ahead if you use the boat regularly.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Nov 5, 2:14?pm, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:33?pm, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:35?am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
glegroups.com...
With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.
Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.
Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.
Eisboch
I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:
"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."
Right, of course.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm sure you consider Hinckley a piece of crap. None of their lobster
or picnic style boats would ever compare to yours, I'm certain of
that.
If you might be interested in a general description of how a well
respected E Coast boat is built, follow this link:
http://hinckleyyachts.com/home.html
Select "Under the Skin", and then select item 5 on the illustration.
Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?
I thought we were discussing sal****er fishing boats.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I thought I was responding to your comment that my remark (about
modern composite construction offering some opportunities to improve
upon traditional hand rolled rove and resin) "pegged the Bullship-o-
meter" and was straight off the PR desk. My response consists of an
observation that Hinckley, normally considered among today's finest
boat builders, uses a "composite", rather than hand rolled hull. No
bullship.

Chuck...I have no problems with "modern" composite hulls, so long as the
composite does not include foamboard or balsa.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then why does a statement that modern composite construction is
supplanting traditional hand rolled rove and resin "peg the bullship-o-
meter"?

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:46 -0500, HK wrote:

There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

There are lots of used ones from the 80s still going strong. They are
such great boats that it pays to do a refurb on them and bring them
back to like new. You can buy a used 46 for 200K or so, put 2 or 300
into a complete refit and still be way ahead of a new boat of
comparable quality.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:37:32 -0500, HK wrote:

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.


It was only a year old when I bought it and as I posted, it was easy to
sail, and fun, too.

Sitting in an oversized old tub of a GB is not my kind of boating. It
wasn't then, and it isn't now.

Sez the guy who's never tried it. :-)

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 19:32:24 -0500, " JimH" ask wrote:

I've heard rumors of some small amount engaged in on the Pacific, but
have always been leery of same. Sort of like tostitos in Kansas.....



I guess I need to see your definition of 'sport fishing'.

You're not likely to be convinced but on the east coast it is commonly
meant to be "deep sea fishing", or going out off the continental shelf
to the "canyons". It takes a decent boat to go out there and back in
the windy conditions which frequently prevail.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:02:30 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:46 -0500, HK wrote:

There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

There are lots of used ones from the 80s still going strong. They are
such great boats that it pays to do a refurb on them and bring them
back to like new. You can buy a used 46 for 200K or so, put 2 or 300
into a complete refit and still be way ahead of a new boat of
comparable quality.

That's the way I've been thinking lately after seeing a '47 Post that
was refurbished.

I've seen a couple of insurance boats that would make good candidates
for this approach.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

HK wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:44:47 -0500, HK wrote:

My first sailboat on the Bay was from the wonderful folks who brought
us Tiara. S2 9.2. Just under 30', and a wide-bodied slowpoke. But it
was easy to sail.

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.


It was only a year old when I bought it and as I posted, it was easy to
sail, and fun, too.

Sitting in an oversized old tub of a GB is not my kind of boating. It
wasn't then, and it isn't now.

So the lobster boat was...a LIE?

Who would have thought...

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:56:13 -0800, Chuck Gould
wrote:

Then why does a statement that modern composite construction is
supplanting traditional hand rolled rove and resin "peg the bullship-o-
meter"?

There are some legitimate concerns. Leading edge racing sailboats
started using end grain balsa cores back in the mid 80s to save
weight. End grain balsa was supposed to solve the "water migration in
the core issue". For various reasons most of those boats have ended
up getting water in the core anyway, and a lot of them have already
been scrapped. The jury is still out on all new construction
techniques until the boats have been around for a while.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:14:38 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:10:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

I've heard that before, but I'm not at all sure that it is true with
closed cell foam.

I saw a 12 year old Ranger 318 VS when it was being cut up and the
foam flotation looked brand new.

I'm not up on the techniques used to core hulls, or the materials, but
when I was reading up on it I concluded my preference would be solid
FRP hull.
With a sailboat like a Mac 26X/M you get that, and "unsinkable"
flotation elsewhere.
The Carolina Skiff and Boston Whaler have the flotation in the hull.
I see on the CS forum that some owners have delamination problems,
and in a recent post the problem was so bad an owner started taking on
water. They sometimes get their boats replaced under warranty and
CS seems to be a stand-up outfit.
But I'm starting to have second thoughts about owning one.
I haven't heard about Whalers having these problems, but haven't
really tried looked at them hard.

--Vic

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:41 -0500, HK wrote:

Absolutely, although 700 hp is about the norm for an offshore sportfish
boat of that size. The engines will be about $18,000 each through
Parker, I would guess. That would be the fully rigged price. $36,000 for
the pair. I wonder what a pair of new 350 hp diesels, fully rigged,
with transmissions, goes for these days? Let's say...$80,000+, or a
$44,000 difference. It's going to take a hell of a lot of diesel
efficiency to make that up!

Well, lets run the numbers just for the fun of it. Your price
estimate is in the ball park so let's figure out what the payback is
over 5 years or so. Assuming the diesels will return 50% of their
extra cost on resale, the number to meet is $22,000.

With the pair of big OBs the boat will burn about 50 gph, 25 gph with
diesels. Gas at the marina is about $4, diesel about $3, cost per
hour $200 gas, $75 diesel, $125 delta.

$22,000 divided by $125 is 176 hours. That is the break even point.
If you use the boat more than 176 hours you are money ahead on
operating costs alone. Factor in the reliability and longevity of
diesels and you are way ahead if you use the boat regularly.


My first thought was that by the time the Yamahas are due for their first
rebuild, the diesels will just about be nicely broken in.

Besides, at 35' a proper boat should have inboards. With fixed props. And
rudders.
A boaty-boat.

Eisboch

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:46 -0500, HK wrote:

There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

There are lots of used ones from the 80s still going strong. They are
such great boats that it pays to do a refurb on them and bring them
back to like new. You can buy a used 46 for 200K or so, put 2 or 300
into a complete refit and still be way ahead of a new boat of
comparable quality.

The guy beside me at Kingman is doing exactly that in his 70's something 46'
Bert.
He looked around at new boats and realized it would cost him over a million
to replace what he had. He likes the hull so much that he's having Kingman
do a repower and complete renovation inside and out over the winter. He
figures it will run him about 200K.

I met the mechanic who will be doing the bulk of the work on the repower and
will also be coordinating the rest of the renovation. He's been maintaining
the owner's Bert for many years but started working at Kingman 2 years ago.
The Bert owner purposely brought the boat to Kingman for the work because
this particular mechanic was there.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:02:30 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:46 -0500, HK wrote:

There haven't been any real "Bertrams" for years, just boats made by
successive companies that bought the Bertram name before, during and
after manufacturing started and stopped...Whittaker, Bertram Trojan,
Feretti and others have owned the name.

There are lots of used ones from the 80s still going strong. They are
such great boats that it pays to do a refurb on them and bring them
back to like new. You can buy a used 46 for 200K or so, put 2 or 300
into a complete refit and still be way ahead of a new boat of
comparable quality.

That's the way I've been thinking lately after seeing a '47 Post that
was refurbished.

I've seen a couple of insurance boats that would make good candidates
for this approach.


Little too old.

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:13:44 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

I've seen a couple of insurance boats that would make good candidates
for this approach.

If you want to end up with a great boat at a reasonable price
(reasonable is relative), I'd start out with something better than an
insurance boat so that you can spend most of the money on cosmetic
stuff. The Berts have great electrical systems so that's not usually
a problem. The 8V92TIs can be completely refurbed for $30K each, a
new genset for another 20K. Figure another 30K for new controls,
instruments and electronics. A good awlgrip job will run about 30 to
50K, complete interior refurb 50 to 100K, new canvas 10K, new props
and shafts 10K.

So let's add it up, taking mid point of the ranges:

Engines 60
Genset 20
Cntls, etc 30
Awlgrip 40
Interior 75
Canvas 10
Props 10

Loooks like about $245 give or take, maybe $300 for top shelf
everything.

Decent used 46s are about $200, so you end up with a $1M boat for less
than half. You could easily spend another 20 or 30 for new helm
seats, fighting chair, ice maker, out riggers, etc.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:58:49 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

My first thought was that by the time the Yamahas are due for their first
rebuild, the diesels will just about be nicely broken in.

Besides, at 35' a proper boat should have inboards. With fixed props. And
rudders.
A boaty-boat.

Exactly, and you're money ahead on fuel at less than 200 hours.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:14:38 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:10:00 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 23:01:52 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:35:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I have no objection to modern materials in the hull, but I'd not buy
any
boat with foam in between the hull skins.

Why?

I've read that pounding eventually destroys the foam's
structure/strength, leading to excessive hull flex.
Yep. That's what I remember reading.

I've heard that before, but I'm not at all sure that it is true with
closed cell foam.

I saw a 12 year old Ranger 318 VS when it was being cut up and the
foam flotation looked brand new.

I'm not up on the techniques used to core hulls, or the materials, but
when I was reading up on it I concluded my preference would be solid
FRP hull.
With a sailboat like a Mac 26X/M you get that, and "unsinkable"
flotation elsewhere.
The Carolina Skiff and Boston Whaler have the flotation in the hull.
I see on the CS forum that some owners have delamination problems,
and in a recent post the problem was so bad an owner started taking on
water. They sometimes get their boats replaced under warranty and
CS seems to be a stand-up outfit.
But I'm starting to have second thoughts about owning one.
I haven't heard about Whalers having these problems, but haven't
really tried looked at them hard.

--Vic

Cored construction and foam floatation are two different things.
The way a Whaler is built (and some other manufacturers now-a-days) could
be considered a extreme meld of both I suppose. There have been cases of
Whalers becoming "waterlogged" due to cracks in the hull leading to water
saturation of the foam.

I agree with Harry regarding cored construction. Solid below and just up
over the waterline, then non-balsa coring (closed cell) is ok above.


Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:24:01 -0500, " JimH" ask wrote:

I guess I need to see your definition of 'sport fishing'.

You're not likely to be convinced but on the east coast it is commonly
meant to be "deep sea fishing", or going out off the continental shelf
to the "canyons". It takes a decent boat to go out there and back in
the windy conditions which frequently prevail.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I believe you. I just did not know what you East Coast snobs were referring
to.

I actually live on the west coast, the west coast of Florida that is,
a few short miles from the Gulf. There are lots of sportfishing boats
on the Gulf of course but it's different. The best fishing is in or
near the Gulf Stream, there's no getting away from it. The boat 2
slips down from us came in with 7 tuna this afternoon. You don't get
that too many other places.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:13:44 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

I've seen a couple of insurance boats that would make good candidates
for this approach.

If you want to end up with a great boat at a reasonable price
(reasonable is relative), I'd start out with something better than an
insurance boat so that you can spend most of the money on cosmetic
stuff. The Berts have great electrical systems so that's not usually
a problem. The 8V92TIs can be completely refurbed for $30K each, a
new genset for another 20K. Figure another 30K for new controls,
instruments and electronics. A good awlgrip job will run about 30 to
50K, complete interior refurb 50 to 100K, new canvas 10K, new props
and shafts 10K.



In Short Wave's case, I think you are a little light in the new controls,
instruments and electronics.

Ever see his daily driver?

http://www.eisboch.com/instruments.jpg

Eisboch

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:41 -0500, HK wrote:

Absolutely, although 700 hp is about the norm for an offshore sportfish
boat of that size. The engines will be about $18,000 each through
Parker, I would guess. That would be the fully rigged price. $36,000 for
the pair. I wonder what a pair of new 350 hp diesels, fully rigged,
with transmissions, goes for these days? Let's say...$80,000+, or a
$44,000 difference. It's going to take a hell of a lot of diesel
efficiency to make that up!

Well, lets run the numbers just for the fun of it. Your price
estimate is in the ball park so let's figure out what the payback is
over 5 years or so. Assuming the diesels will return 50% of their
extra cost on resale, the number to meet is $22,000.

With the pair of big OBs the boat will burn about 50 gph, 25 gph with
diesels. Gas at the marina is about $4, diesel about $3, cost per
hour $200 gas, $75 diesel, $125 delta.

$22,000 divided by $125 is 176 hours. That is the break even point.
If you use the boat more than 176 hours you are money ahead on
operating costs alone. Factor in the reliability and longevity of
diesels and you are way ahead if you use the boat regularly.

I doubt the diesels are going to burn half the fuel of the gas engines
at the same planing boat speeds. Also, around here there is almost no
difference in the cost of gasoline vs. diesel. There used to be, though.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 2:14?pm, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 1:33?pm, HK wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote:
On Nov 5, 11:35?am, HK wrote:
Eisboch wrote:
"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...
With crude oil well over $90/bbl and forecast to hit $100 by the end
of the year, we could easily see $4- $4-50 a gallon at gas stations
and
maybe $6 at fuel docks during next spring's annual gas gouge. If
boating is to survive as a pastime and if the manufacturers hope to
sell enough boats to survive, the industry has to get some weight out
of the boats without sacrificing strength. The solid, hand rolled
laminate hull is being supplanted with better alternatives, made
possible in part by vacuum infused molding.
Making boats lighter has more implications than saving a few bucks worth of
fuel.
Leave them heavy and drive slower, I say.
Eisboch
I love this line, since it is right out of the PR Department's
bullship-ometer:
"The solid, hand rolled laminate hull is being supplanted with better
alternatives..."
Right, of course.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I'm sure you consider Hinckley a piece of crap. None of their lobster
or picnic style boats would ever compare to yours, I'm certain of
that.
If you might be interested in a general description of how a well
respected E Coast boat is built, follow this link:
http://hinckleyyachts.com/home.html
Select "Under the Skin", and then select item 5 on the illustration.
Omigawd. Kevlar and carbon fiber composites! (Watch the video- see the
bagged hull). Better run over there quick, Harry, and let them know
they don't have the first clue about how to build a boat.
Obviously a solid, hand rolled, FRP hull would be vastly superior to
anything Hinckley is putting out.....right?
I thought we were discussing sal****er fishing boats.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
I thought I was responding to your comment that my remark (about
modern composite construction offering some opportunities to improve
upon traditional hand rolled rove and resin) "pegged the Bullship-o-
meter" and was straight off the PR desk. My response consists of an
observation that Hinckley, normally considered among today's finest
boat builders, uses a "composite", rather than hand rolled hull. No
bullship.
Chuck...I have no problems with "modern" composite hulls, so long as the
composite does not include foamboard or balsa.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Then why does a statement that modern composite construction is
supplanting traditional hand rolled rove and resin "peg the bullship-o-
meter"?



Some few boats, relatively speaking, are using "modern composite
construction." That hardly qualifies as "supplanting."

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:37:32 -0500, HK wrote:

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.

It was only a year old when I bought it and as I posted, it was easy to
sail, and fun, too.

Sitting in an oversized old tub of a GB is not my kind of boating. It
wasn't then, and it isn't now.

Sez the guy who's never tried it. :-)


I've tried it.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:45:47 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:

In Short Wave's case, I think you are a little light in the new controls,
instruments and electronics.

Ever see his daily driver?

http://www.eisboch.com/instruments.jpg

Heh, I once saw an old Studebaker that looked just about like that.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Eisboch wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:41 -0500, HK wrote:

Absolutely, although 700 hp is about the norm for an offshore sportfish
boat of that size. The engines will be about $18,000 each through
Parker, I would guess. That would be the fully rigged price. $36,000 for
the pair. I wonder what a pair of new 350 hp diesels, fully rigged,
with transmissions, goes for these days? Let's say...$80,000+, or a
$44,000 difference. It's going to take a hell of a lot of diesel
efficiency to make that up!
Well, lets run the numbers just for the fun of it. Your price
estimate is in the ball park so let's figure out what the payback is
over 5 years or so. Assuming the diesels will return 50% of their
extra cost on resale, the number to meet is $22,000.

With the pair of big OBs the boat will burn about 50 gph, 25 gph with
diesels. Gas at the marina is about $4, diesel about $3, cost per
hour $200 gas, $75 diesel, $125 delta.

$22,000 divided by $125 is 176 hours. That is the break even point.
If you use the boat more than 176 hours you are money ahead on
operating costs alone. Factor in the reliability and longevity of
diesels and you are way ahead if you use the boat regularly.


My first thought was that by the time the Yamahas are due for their first
rebuild, the diesels will just about be nicely broken in.

Besides, at 35' a proper boat should have inboards. With fixed props. And
rudders.
A boaty-boat.

Eisboch

Eisboch



I tend to agree regarding the inboards, but...what if one of those
diesels blows a tranny? :}

I have a six year warranty on my new Yamaha. Ergo, I will have no repair
costs, just a couple of hundred a year on routine maintenance.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

Dan wrote:
HK wrote:
Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:44:47 -0500, HK wrote:

My first sailboat on the Bay was from the wonderful folks who
brought us Tiara. S2 9.2. Just under 30', and a wide-bodied
slowpoke. But it was easy to sail.

It's hard to imagine you in an old slow boat like that. Our old slow
GB will run circles around a 30 ft sailboat, and do it with a great
deal more comfort.


It was only a year old when I bought it and as I posted, it was easy
to sail, and fun, too.

Sitting in an oversized old tub of a GB is not my kind of boating. It
wasn't then, and it isn't now.

So the lobster boat was...a LIE?

Who would have thought...


Is there anything turning in that rotifer brain of yours, Dan? Did you
see a date posted in reference to my S2 days? I bought it slightly used
from an Annapolis charter company. Its actual owner bought it to put it
into charter service and only used it a few times before he was
transferred and put the boat up for sale. It was a center cockpit model
with the shoal draft keel, and as I said, was easy to sail in the Bay.

Why are you "in" rec.boats at all, Dan? I mean, you really don't do
anything here except post juvenile insults.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:21:42 -0500, HK wrote:

Why are you "in" rec.boats at all, Dan? I mean, you really don't do
anything here except post juvenile insults.


Harumphhh.

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 5 Nov 2007 21:27:39 -0500, "Eisboch" wrote:



Cored construction and foam floatation are two different things.
The way a Whaler is built (and some other manufacturers now-a-days) could
be considered a extreme meld of both I suppose. There have been cases of
Whalers becoming "waterlogged" due to cracks in the hull leading to water
saturation of the foam.

I agree with Harry regarding cored construction. Solid below and just up
over the waterline, then non-balsa coring (closed cell) is ok above.

Me too. What I meant to say is that if you go with a "non-sinkable"
hull like the CS or Whaler you are getting a cored hull.
Carolina Skiffs are also prone to waterlogging through cracks/poorly
sealed deck fittings.
A Mac 26 X/M has solid FRP hull, and the flotation is foam blocks in
various voids.

--Vic

Another quality boat manufacturer sells out.
 

On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:16:20 -0500, HK wrote:

I tend to agree regarding the inboards, but...what if one of those
diesels blows a tranny? :}

My starboard tranny had 26 years and maybe 10,000 hours on it before
it started to act up. It was actually still functional but showing
some signs that it needed work. We should only hope that everything
else lasted that long without maintenance.