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Old January 15th 06, 04:38 AM posted to rec.boats
 
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Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

I have a Nanni 4.330 TDI 115hp diesel engine on my Resort 35
displacement cruiser. The boat is built to charter specifications in
Australia and is set up for charter in the Sydney area. The number 3
piston has lost compression due to a valve seat falling out and
destroying the piston head. It is too early as yet to get the full
picture of all the damage, as the mechanic has only just pulled it out
of the boat, but I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this
problem and what was the cause of the seat falling out. My mechanic
wanted me to look at the engine, because he had never seen another
similar problem. He later explained to me that the only two causes of
this failure were severe overheating of the engine, as a consequence of
which the seat falls out from the expanded head, or because the head or
the seat have been incorrectly milled and the tolerance was
insufficient to hold them together under normal engine operating
temperatures. My problem appears to be the latter because there is
absolutely no evidence of any overheating of the engine, which is why
my mechanic wanted me to see the condition of the engine, water pumps
head gaskets other pistons and so on, just to understand why he thought
it unusual that the seat fell out.

Does anyone have a similar experience or perhaps can give me another
reason to look in to, as to why the seat fell out. The boat is only 5
years old and the engine has only done about 670 hours of operation. I
have limited mechanical experience and understanding, but several
mechanics, including my father in law all agree that this should not
have happened if there were no overheating of the head and block. Would
you let me know if there are any other reasons I should be aware of
before they repair the engine, only to let it happen again sometime in
the future, because we missed something. Any advice is helpful.


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Old January 15th 06, 03:15 PM posted to rec.boats
Butch Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

I agree with your mechanic. Looks like a manufacturing defect AKA poor
quality control. However, as it held up for 670 operating hours I doubt
you'll get Nanni to participate in the repair cost. Was the cylinder head
damaged badly? If not, count yourself lucky. A replacement seat, properly
installed, should outlast the boat.

Butch
wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a Nanni 4.330 TDI 115hp diesel engine on my Resort 35
displacement cruiser. The boat is built to charter specifications in
Australia and is set up for charter in the Sydney area. The number 3
piston has lost compression due to a valve seat falling out and
destroying the piston head. It is too early as yet to get the full
picture of all the damage, as the mechanic has only just pulled it out
of the boat, but I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this
problem and what was the cause of the seat falling out. My mechanic
wanted me to look at the engine, because he had never seen another
similar problem. He later explained to me that the only two causes of
this failure were severe overheating of the engine, as a consequence of
which the seat falls out from the expanded head, or because the head or
the seat have been incorrectly milled and the tolerance was
insufficient to hold them together under normal engine operating
temperatures. My problem appears to be the latter because there is
absolutely no evidence of any overheating of the engine, which is why
my mechanic wanted me to see the condition of the engine, water pumps
head gaskets other pistons and so on, just to understand why he thought
it unusual that the seat fell out.

Does anyone have a similar experience or perhaps can give me another
reason to look in to, as to why the seat fell out. The boat is only 5
years old and the engine has only done about 670 hours of operation. I
have limited mechanical experience and understanding, but several
mechanics, including my father in law all agree that this should not
have happened if there were no overheating of the head and block. Would
you let me know if there are any other reasons I should be aware of
before they repair the engine, only to let it happen again sometime in
the future, because we missed something. Any advice is helpful.



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Old January 16th 06, 11:12 AM posted to rec.boats
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

Just found out today that the bore was scored and could not be
adequately rubbed back and because the block does not have a wet
sleeve, that the engine is pretty much useless. The cost to re bore the
piston and rebuild the head would probably cost more than a new engine.
The mechanic is getting quotes for me now on both a long and short
block, depending on whether we use some of the old parts like turbo,
etc from the current engine. He also said that because the engine is
pretty new that there would be no market for the engine to be sold to a
re conditioner of engines as there would be little demand for such an
engine for quite some time. The head around the valve seat was chewed a
little, but even if it can be repaired, (and the mechanic is not sure
it can be) it seems that the cost of checking out the other valves, the
injectors, the bore and so on would almost warrant a new engine. I hope
you are wrong about Nanni, or their Australian distributors, because I
have the most expensive row boat in Australia at the moment. Thanks for
your comments.

Peter

  #4   Report Post  
Old January 17th 06, 01:39 PM posted to rec.boats
James
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

In the US a short block means without head(s). And neither includes
anything other than the basic engine. We would call an engine with turbo
and accessories a complete engine, not a short or long block. At your hours
a long block should be satisfactory, your accessories should be ok. I am a
bit surprised that a single bore, replacement piston, and a valve seat
replacement will cost close to the price os a diesel long block but then I'm
not where you are either. Is he pricing just a single bore? Or a boring
and replacing all the cylinders? Some people don't like doing a single bore
but frankly I don't think it is a problem to punch just one out 1 size up.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just found out today that the bore was scored and could not be
adequately rubbed back and because the block does not have a wet
sleeve, that the engine is pretty much useless. The cost to re bore the
piston and rebuild the head would probably cost more than a new engine.
The mechanic is getting quotes for me now on both a long and short
block, depending on whether we use some of the old parts like turbo,
etc from the current engine. He also said that because the engine is
pretty new that there would be no market for the engine to be sold to a
re conditioner of engines as there would be little demand for such an
engine for quite some time. The head around the valve seat was chewed a
little, but even if it can be repaired, (and the mechanic is not sure
it can be) it seems that the cost of checking out the other valves, the
injectors, the bore and so on would almost warrant a new engine. I hope
you are wrong about Nanni, or their Australian distributors, because I
have the most expensive row boat in Australia at the moment. Thanks for
your comments.

Peter



  #5   Report Post  
Old January 18th 06, 11:21 AM posted to rec.boats
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

I am not sure of the terms, but the mechanic said that his labour to
pull the engine out of the boat and then to strip the engine of all
parts to just the block, in order to send it away and be bored out, is
expensive enough. Then, add the cost of someone upsizing the piston
etc, as well as rebuilding the damage to the valve cylinder and then
inserting a new seat. For eample, because everybody here is a
specialist nowadays, the fuel injector will cost $110.00 per injector,
to rebuild.

He said before he gave me a quote to do this repair, he wanted to see
what a new engine would cost, complete with all marinised parts,
including gearbox etc, and then just the Kubota engine cost. which we
could marinise with the existing parts from my engine. This way I can
choose which option is price effective, while carrying the least amount
of risk from existing ware and tear. He is certain that the cost of
subcontracting the specialised repairs of various critical parts and
adding his labour for striping and rebuilding the engine and putting it
back on the boat, will be very close to a new engine. My friend who is
a qualified mechanic along with his brother, another mechanic, spent
over $4,500 here to repair his volvo engine, and he did most of the
labour. As soon as I have these prices and the options I will post it
on the net if you are interested.

I know very little about engines and repairing them, but the longer I
own a boat the faster I am learning. If I said tractor, any mechanic
would not dare to say anything that started with one thousand, but tell
them boat and they tell you not to get your hopes up for anything less
than ten thousand. There's a great way to make money........JUST ADD
WATER ! It makes every grow ten time bigger, including your bills.


James wrote:
In the US a short block means without head(s). And neither includes
anything other than the basic engine. We would call an engine with turbo
and accessories a complete engine, not a short or long block. At your hours
a long block should be satisfactory, your accessories should be ok. I am a
bit surprised that a single bore, replacement piston, and a valve seat
replacement will cost close to the price os a diesel long block but then I'm
not where you are either. Is he pricing just a single bore? Or a boring
and replacing all the cylinders? Some people don't like doing a single bore
but frankly I don't think it is a problem to punch just one out 1 size up.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just found out today that the bore was scored and could not be
adequately rubbed back and because the block does not have a wet
sleeve, that the engine is pretty much useless. The cost to re bore the
piston and rebuild the head would probably cost more than a new engine.
The mechanic is getting quotes for me now on both a long and short
block, depending on whether we use some of the old parts like turbo,
etc from the current engine. He also said that because the engine is
pretty new that there would be no market for the engine to be sold to a
re conditioner of engines as there would be little demand for such an
engine for quite some time. The head around the valve seat was chewed a
little, but even if it can be repaired, (and the mechanic is not sure
it can be) it seems that the cost of checking out the other valves, the
injectors, the bore and so on would almost warrant a new engine. I hope
you are wrong about Nanni, or their Australian distributors, because I
have the most expensive row boat in Australia at the moment. Thanks for
your comments.

Peter




  #6   Report Post  
Old January 18th 06, 12:57 PM posted to rec.boats
James
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

Probably hard to find for a boat but some people have big truck diesels
bored in place. Otherwise the engine removal is a given cost either way. I
see you have cost issues that maybe we don't have. Around here swapping the
parts to a long block would be cheaper than buying a complete, ready to
install engine. Some machine shops will bore with the crank and the other 3
pistons still in. Boring is done from the top.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am not sure of the terms, but the mechanic said that his labour to
pull the engine out of the boat and then to strip the engine of all
parts to just the block, in order to send it away and be bored out, is
expensive enough. Then, add the cost of someone upsizing the piston
etc, as well as rebuilding the damage to the valve cylinder and then
inserting a new seat. For eample, because everybody here is a
specialist nowadays, the fuel injector will cost $110.00 per injector,
to rebuild.

He said before he gave me a quote to do this repair, he wanted to see
what a new engine would cost, complete with all marinised parts,
including gearbox etc, and then just the Kubota engine cost. which we
could marinise with the existing parts from my engine. This way I can
choose which option is price effective, while carrying the least amount
of risk from existing ware and tear. He is certain that the cost of
subcontracting the specialised repairs of various critical parts and
adding his labour for striping and rebuilding the engine and putting it
back on the boat, will be very close to a new engine. My friend who is
a qualified mechanic along with his brother, another mechanic, spent
over $4,500 here to repair his volvo engine, and he did most of the
labour. As soon as I have these prices and the options I will post it
on the net if you are interested.

I know very little about engines and repairing them, but the longer I
own a boat the faster I am learning. If I said tractor, any mechanic
would not dare to say anything that started with one thousand, but tell
them boat and they tell you not to get your hopes up for anything less
than ten thousand. There's a great way to make money........JUST ADD
WATER ! It makes every grow ten time bigger, including your bills.


James wrote:
In the US a short block means without head(s). And neither includes
anything other than the basic engine. We would call an engine with turbo
and accessories a complete engine, not a short or long block. At your
hours
a long block should be satisfactory, your accessories should be ok. I am
a
bit surprised that a single bore, replacement piston, and a valve seat
replacement will cost close to the price os a diesel long block but then
I'm
not where you are either. Is he pricing just a single bore? Or a boring
and replacing all the cylinders? Some people don't like doing a single
bore
but frankly I don't think it is a problem to punch just one out 1 size
up.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just found out today that the bore was scored and could not be
adequately rubbed back and because the block does not have a wet
sleeve, that the engine is pretty much useless. The cost to re bore the
piston and rebuild the head would probably cost more than a new engine.
The mechanic is getting quotes for me now on both a long and short
block, depending on whether we use some of the old parts like turbo,
etc from the current engine. He also said that because the engine is
pretty new that there would be no market for the engine to be sold to a
re conditioner of engines as there would be little demand for such an
engine for quite some time. The head around the valve seat was chewed a
little, but even if it can be repaired, (and the mechanic is not sure
it can be) it seems that the cost of checking out the other valves, the
injectors, the bore and so on would almost warrant a new engine. I hope
you are wrong about Nanni, or their Australian distributors, because I
have the most expensive row boat in Australia at the moment. Thanks for
your comments.

Peter




  #7   Report Post  
Old January 18th 06, 02:58 PM posted to rec.boats
Butch Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

In your market it could well be worth your while to take a course in diesel
engine repair. It's not rocket science. Even I can do it.

Butch
"James" wrote in message
nk.net...
Probably hard to find for a boat but some people have big truck diesels
bored in place. Otherwise the engine removal is a given cost either way.
I see you have cost issues that maybe we don't have. Around here swapping
the parts to a long block would be cheaper than buying a complete, ready
to install engine. Some machine shops will bore with the crank and the
other 3 pistons still in. Boring is done from the top.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am not sure of the terms, but the mechanic said that his labour to
pull the engine out of the boat and then to strip the engine of all
parts to just the block, in order to send it away and be bored out, is
expensive enough. Then, add the cost of someone upsizing the piston
etc, as well as rebuilding the damage to the valve cylinder and then
inserting a new seat. For eample, because everybody here is a
specialist nowadays, the fuel injector will cost $110.00 per injector,
to rebuild.

He said before he gave me a quote to do this repair, he wanted to see
what a new engine would cost, complete with all marinised parts,
including gearbox etc, and then just the Kubota engine cost. which we
could marinise with the existing parts from my engine. This way I can
choose which option is price effective, while carrying the least amount
of risk from existing ware and tear. He is certain that the cost of
subcontracting the specialised repairs of various critical parts and
adding his labour for striping and rebuilding the engine and putting it
back on the boat, will be very close to a new engine. My friend who is
a qualified mechanic along with his brother, another mechanic, spent
over $4,500 here to repair his volvo engine, and he did most of the
labour. As soon as I have these prices and the options I will post it
on the net if you are interested.

I know very little about engines and repairing them, but the longer I
own a boat the faster I am learning. If I said tractor, any mechanic
would not dare to say anything that started with one thousand, but tell
them boat and they tell you not to get your hopes up for anything less
than ten thousand. There's a great way to make money........JUST ADD
WATER ! It makes every grow ten time bigger, including your bills.


James wrote:
In the US a short block means without head(s). And neither includes
anything other than the basic engine. We would call an engine with
turbo
and accessories a complete engine, not a short or long block. At your
hours
a long block should be satisfactory, your accessories should be ok. I
am a
bit surprised that a single bore, replacement piston, and a valve seat
replacement will cost close to the price os a diesel long block but then
I'm
not where you are either. Is he pricing just a single bore? Or a
boring
and replacing all the cylinders? Some people don't like doing a single
bore
but frankly I don't think it is a problem to punch just one out 1 size
up.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Just found out today that the bore was scored and could not be
adequately rubbed back and because the block does not have a wet
sleeve, that the engine is pretty much useless. The cost to re bore
the
piston and rebuild the head would probably cost more than a new
engine.
The mechanic is getting quotes for me now on both a long and short
block, depending on whether we use some of the old parts like turbo,
etc from the current engine. He also said that because the engine is
pretty new that there would be no market for the engine to be sold to
a
re conditioner of engines as there would be little demand for such an
engine for quite some time. The head around the valve seat was chewed
a
little, but even if it can be repaired, (and the mechanic is not sure
it can be) it seems that the cost of checking out the other valves,
the
injectors, the bore and so on would almost warrant a new engine. I
hope
you are wrong about Nanni, or their Australian distributors, because I
have the most expensive row boat in Australia at the moment. Thanks
for
your comments.

Peter






  #8   Report Post  
Old January 22nd 06, 08:08 AM posted to rec.boats
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

Got the quote on Friday. $13,064 for a new Kubota engine and the nanni
marine gear gets transferred over to the Kubota. The alternative was
close to $22,000 in parts and labour to fix the engine bore and buy
parts like the new head. So even if I could fix the engine I would only
save $6,800 in labour, and I still could not get the engine in and out
of the boat without winches etc, which I don't have. Still trying to
get help from Nanni.

Let you know what happens.
Regards
Peter

  #9   Report Post  
Old January 22nd 06, 03:32 PM posted to rec.boats
Butch Davis
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

Peter,

Around a marina you should be able to find someone with the rigging skills
required to remove the Nanni with some small timbers and light hauling
tackle. Once above deck it should be less difficult to get the Nanni over
to a dolly on the pier.

Can the Kubota use the mounts from the Nanni or will some fabrication be
required? A good bit of care is required when installing the engine to
ensure proper alignment.

Hopefully, if the mounts are ready, the marine gear can be removed with the
Nanni and switched over to the Kubota on the pier. This would allow you to
install the Kubota and gear immediately following removal of the Nanni. Of
course, you may have some work to do to hook up the fuel, electrical, and
cooling water to the Kubota. Sounds like about a two day effort in total
depending upon ease of access to the engine compartment.

When the compartment is empty is a good time to do a good cleaning and
inspection of the space and perform any required maintenance.

Good luck.

Butch
wrote in message
ps.com...
Got the quote on Friday. $13,064 for a new Kubota engine and the nanni
marine gear gets transferred over to the Kubota. The alternative was
close to $22,000 in parts and labour to fix the engine bore and buy
parts like the new head. So even if I could fix the engine I would only
save $6,800 in labour, and I still could not get the engine in and out
of the boat without winches etc, which I don't have. Still trying to
get help from Nanni.

Let you know what happens.
Regards
Peter



  #10   Report Post  
Old February 3rd 06, 08:15 AM posted to rec.boats
 
Posts: n/a
Default Nanni Diesel Engine Problems

Thanks Butch. The mechanic had to take the engine out on the first day
because the bay is small and you can not work in it. Since my last
email I have had some very good news. Nanni have come to the rescue and
have been very supportive. In my opinion they have to be applauded for
their efforts. I will be a devoted Nanni user from now on. Not only was
the engine very economical to run, but from what I have heard, the
replacement of any engine for $13,000 is relatively cheap. To add to
that, the Australian distributor made representation on my behalf, and
their response was incredible. That kind of backup is priceless. At
least for me I am satisfied that I will have the backup I need in the
future. I hope the boat will be back in the water in the next two
weeks, depending on delivery of parts. Thank you too, Butch. I took
comfort in having people like you educating me and giving invaluable
advice. By the way, the Nanni engine is a Marinised Kubota and so the
changeover of parts to the new engine will be exactly the same.
Thanks again.



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