"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
nk.net...
Bill, lets make this real simple so that your little brain can absorb
this.

Under the official "Collision Regulations" which some people use the
misnomer "rules of the road" you will find a section called Schedule 1
(sections 3 & 4 ) Part A-General Rule 3 called "General Definitions"
Rule 3 part # ( c )
The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that the
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.


Bill, now is the time to get your brain in gear! Do you understand
what
was written in the Collision Regulations, that I have provided for you,
in
the above? Read it one more time! Notice that it does not mention
anything about the motor running. Notice that it is written
"propelling
machinery, if fitted, is not being used." Bill, do you comprehend
what
"propelling machinery" is? It is what drives the boat forward. The
propeller! Got that Bill? Do you understand it now. Get this in
your
mind. A "sailboat" can have it's engine running, for many different
reasons, and not be driving the "propelling machinery" which is the
clutch,
transmission, drive shaft, propeller., etc.,..

Jim C.

Do you understand that when the sailboats motor is running, it is in use.
Just because it is in neutral, does not negate that it is in use. You
better do a little case law research.

Bill, go back and read what is written in the Collision Regulations. I
have tried to make your feeble brain understand what is written, but you
are
too dense to comprehend the regulations. Admiralty Law, in this
definition of "sailing vessel" has been set by precedence. Period!
There
is no argument with set law! Did you get that Bill? If not, keep
rereading until you can comprehend.

Jim C.



So you figure the boat is a sailboat if the sails are up and the motor is
running in neutral? Bzzt! wrong.

Bill McKee wrote:
So you figure the boat is a sailboat if the sails are up and the motor is
running in neutral? Bzzt! wrong.



I think I see where Bill M gets his wrong idea

Here
http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...ing/6_2_b1.htm

it says "Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it is considered a
power driven vessel"

But that is not correct. If you look almost anywhere else

https://www.boater101.com/Course/doc...Manual2004.pdf

http://www.cruising.ca/docs/colreg.html
"A sailboat propelled by machinery is a Motorboat (including motorsailing)."

http://www.auxetrain.org/colregs.html
"(b) The term "power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used."

And this is either the official wording or pretty darn close.

http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_i_a.jsp#a5

http://www.dirauxwest.org/NavRules/colregs.htm


Now pay attention... a power vessel is propelled by machinery. In other
words, engine running, in gear. A sailing vessel may be "using" her
engine for ballast if the thing hasn't run in 10 years, but it is NOT
propelling the boat.

In other words, if the engine of a sailboat is propelling the vessel,
whether her sails are up or not, she is a power vessel with regard to
the ColRegs. If the engine is running but out of gear, charging the
batteries, heating the water for a shower, making a smokescreen... if
the engine is not propelling the boat, in either forward or reverse, it
is a sailing vessel.

See
http://www.ansa.org/training/ROR-200...planations.pdf

You're welcome.

Doug King

PS I really don't expect any of the hard-core motorheads to admit
they're wrong, they never do. But that doesn't change the facts & I hope
they don't kill somebody trying to prove it.

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bill McKee wrote:
So you figure the boat is a sailboat if the sails are up and the motor
is
running in neutral? Bzzt! wrong.



I think I see where Bill M gets his wrong idea

Here
http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...ing/6_2_b1.htm

it says "Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it is considered a
power driven vessel"

But that is not correct. If you look almost anywhere else

https://www.boater101.com/Course/doc...Manual2004.pdf

http://www.cruising.ca/docs/colreg.html
"A sailboat propelled by machinery is a Motorboat (including
motorsailing)."

http://www.auxetrain.org/colregs.html
"(b) The term "power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by
machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used."

And this is either the official wording or pretty darn close.

http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_i_a.jsp#a5

http://www.dirauxwest.org/NavRules/colregs.htm


Now pay attention... a power vessel is propelled by machinery. In other
words, engine running, in gear. A sailing vessel may be "using" her
engine for ballast if the thing hasn't run in 10 years, but it is NOT
propelling the boat.

In other words, if the engine of a sailboat is propelling the vessel,
whether her sails are up or not, she is a power vessel with regard to
the ColRegs. If the engine is running but out of gear, charging the
batteries, heating the water for a shower, making a smokescreen... if
the engine is not propelling the boat, in either forward or reverse, it
is a sailing vessel.

See
http://www.ansa.org/training/ROR-200...planations.pdf

You're welcome.

Doug King

PS I really don't expect any of the hard-core motorheads to admit
they're wrong, they never do. But that doesn't change the facts & I hope
they don't kill somebody trying to prove it.

Thanks Doug. I just don't understand how Bill could not be able to
understand the Collision Regulations. Perhaps he has dyslexia. That
would explain his lack of comprehension.

Jim C.

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bill McKee wrote:
So you figure the boat is a sailboat if the sails are up and the
motor
is
running in neutral? Bzzt! wrong.



I think I see where Bill M gets his wrong idea

Here
http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknow...ing/6_2_b1.htm

it says "Note: when a sailboat has its motor running, it is considered a
power driven vessel"

But that is not correct. If you look almost anywhere else

https://www.boater101.com/Course/doc...Manual2004.pdf

http://www.cruising.ca/docs/colreg.html
"A sailboat propelled by machinery is a Motorboat (including
motorsailing)."

http://www.auxetrain.org/colregs.html
"(b) The term "power driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by
machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that
propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used."

And this is either the official wording or pretty darn close.

http://www.boats.com/reeds/jsp/rn_ch_1_i_a.jsp#a5

http://www.dirauxwest.org/NavRules/colregs.htm


Now pay attention... a power vessel is propelled by machinery. In other
words, engine running, in gear. A sailing vessel may be "using" her
engine for ballast if the thing hasn't run in 10 years, but it is NOT
propelling the boat.

In other words, if the engine of a sailboat is propelling the vessel,
whether her sails are up or not, she is a power vessel with regard to
the ColRegs. If the engine is running but out of gear, charging the
batteries, heating the water for a shower, making a smokescreen... if
the engine is not propelling the boat, in either forward or reverse, it
is a sailing vessel.

See
http://www.ansa.org/training/ROR-200...planations.pdf

You're welcome.

Doug King

PS I really don't expect any of the hard-core motorheads to admit
they're wrong, they never do. But that doesn't change the facts & I hope
they don't kill somebody trying to prove it.

Thanks Doug. I just don't understand how Bill could not be able to
understand the Collision Regulations. Perhaps he has dyslexia. That
would explain his lack of comprehension.

Jim C.

Now you idiots know why there are admiralty courts. Your interpretation of
the rules, regulations and laws differs from Bill's and it isn't going to be
resolved here.

But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless of
whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.

"Bert Robbins" wrote in message
. ..
Now you idiots know why there are admiralty courts. Your interpretation of
the rules, regulations and laws differs from Bill's and it isn't going to
be
resolved here.

But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless of
whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.


Good Morning Bert. Do you also have problems with reading the Collision
Regulations? Do you not have a copy of them so you could read it yourself?

The definitions of "sailing vessel" has been established by the Admiralty
Courts and their ruling is in place in the Collision Regulations for all to
see.

Jim C.

Bert Robbins wrote:

Now you idiots know why there are admiralty courts. Your interpretation of
the rules, regulations and laws differs from Bill's and it isn't going to be
resolved here.

But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless of
whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.


Is this still going on?
Unless I'm mistaken...the sailboat that got Bile Bill all in a tizzy was
a Hobie Cat...which doesn't usually carry an outboard.
If anyone has his full personal details, they should forward it to the
closest US Power Squadron. He's an accident waiting to happen on his
home waters. For the sake of fellow boaters everywhere...let's get this
character educated.

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Bert Robbins wrote:

Now you idiots know why there are admiralty courts. Your interpretation
of the rules, regulations and laws differs from Bill's and it isn't going
to be resolved here.

But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless
of whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.
Is this still going on?
Unless I'm mistaken...the sailboat that got Bile Bill all in a tizzy was a
Hobie Cat...which doesn't usually carry an outboard.
If anyone has his full personal details, they should forward it to the
closest US Power Squadron. He's an accident waiting to happen on his home
waters. For the sake of fellow boaters everywhere...let's get this
character educated.

You are wrong on engine running not being a power boat and the type of
sailboat that nearly hit me. Was an about 25' boat, coming out of a side
channel on the motor. Putting up sails and motor is still running and makes
a 90 degree turn almost into me. Get your facts straight!

Bert Robbins wrote:
But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless of
whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.


Hmm... and if a sailboat has an engine in working order, it can be
started by turning the key to avoid a collision.

A sailboat with an engine that doesn't work should get it fixed, so a
collision that could have been avoided by using it is (according to your
stupid theory) *still* at fault.

A sailboat with no engine installed and no possible way to have one
whould be banned from the water, since clearly having an engine is vital
for avoiding collisions, therefor they can be run down with impunity.

In other words, you're wrong.

If the boat's engine is running *and in gear* the according to the
rules, it is a powerboat.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bert Robbins wrote:
But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless
of
whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.


Hmm... and if a sailboat has an engine in working order, it can be
started by turning the key to avoid a collision.

A sailboat with an engine that doesn't work should get it fixed, so a
collision that could have been avoided by using it is (according to your
stupid theory) *still* at fault.

A sailboat with no engine installed and no possible way to have one
whould be banned from the water, since clearly having an engine is vital
for avoiding collisions, therefor they can be run down with impunity.

In other words, you're wrong.

If the boat's engine is running *and in gear* the according to the
rules, it is a powerboat.

DSK


Bert and Bill = dumb and dumber.

Jim C.

"Jim Carter" wrote in message
...

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
Bert Robbins wrote:
But, if the rag merchant has sails up and the engine running regardless
of
whether it is in neutral or not he is a powerboat due to the fact that
propelling machinery can be used to avoid the collision.


Hmm... and if a sailboat has an engine in working order, it can be
started by turning the key to avoid a collision.

A sailboat with an engine that doesn't work should get it fixed, so a
collision that could have been avoided by using it is (according to your
stupid theory) *still* at fault.

A sailboat with no engine installed and no possible way to have one
whould be banned from the water, since clearly having an engine is vital
for avoiding collisions, therefor they can be run down with impunity.

In other words, you're wrong.

If the boat's engine is running *and in gear* the according to the
rules, it is a powerboat.

DSK


Bert and Bill = dumb and dumber.

Jim = Frozen Brain.