My dad has been trying to talk to someone at Dell computers about an error
they made, and all he keeps reaching are ex-7-11 employees. I figure that
the latest trend of using foreign speaking people in customer support won't
last long once the customer satisfaction polling data comes in.



"Coff" wrote in message
om...
" Sorry libs, the sky certainly ain't a fallin'.

Everyone's greater concern is that this represents another example of
increasing productivity NOT being returned to Middle America in the
form higher wages or growing job quality and quantity.

I don't usually contribute to off-topic political posts, but I am
becoming increasingly worried about the future of jobs in this nation.
USA TODAY, this week, had a section on the mass export of jobs to
India that are traditionally professional jobs, such as IT, Claims
Adjusting, Customer Service, Banking, ETC. Many Fortune 500 companies
now have call centers in India to handle customer service. Indian
workers assume American names such as "Jennnifer Smith" as a pseudonym
at work and converse daily with thousands of Americans. COmmunication
costs have dropped, so all this can be moved offshore.

The manufacturing sector continues to die a little more each time we
go through this. I think we are coming to a crossroad where jobs
worth having will not be in this nation. Temping, low wages, and no
job security are not going to get mortgages, pay children's college
tuition, and run this economy.

Our entire economy right now is built on second mortgages digging
Americans "out of debt". People have now instituionalized their
consumer debt as 15-30 year first or second mortgages. The result is
little discretionary income as those individuals turn around and add
new credit card debt to maintian thier lifestyle. I honestly fear
there will be large new consumer debt, no new way to spread it out to
make it more manageable, and folks are going to find themselves moving
into their 50's & 60's with large debts, and no where to turn.

We have been threatened to raise productivity (with no reward for
doing so), taught to fear for our jobs, keep our heads down, and
don't expect anything more than the privilage of keeping our job for
one more month. The current administration must either address the
issue, or admit to our children that "every child will be left behind"
unless they are well-connected as they are the first generation that
will achieve less than their parents (as a whole).

I see no sacrifice or challenges to the upper incomes in this nation,
but we are gutting the middle class, stomping on the working class,
and not being told the truth. I listened carefully to the President's
address on the lawn of the White House before he went on vacation.
Constant questions about jobs resulted in vague, contentless, babbble
about "savings accounts" for job seekers, needing to invest in high
tech training, etc. As I said earlier, we are shipping these jobs
overseas.

I supported President Bush, but I'm quickly losing faith in him. I
watch the justification for war evaporate, more manufacturing jobs,
and now professional jobs, go overseas, aging men try to fulfil dreams
of glory that were applicable to the 1970's, and a significant shift
of tax policy and wealth shift to the upper class. This
administration is attempting to do away with defined pension plans to
"assist business" with the burdens they bear, etc. etc.

I have actually heard my 15 year old son remark about hoping to have
what mom and dad have when he is our age. That would be a 16 year old
Carver, a 13 year old and a 3 year car in the garage, and two kids in
braces at $5K per mouth. Will he do it?

Thanks for lending me your ear. I have no desire to flame or argue,
and won't reply to any responses. I'm just concerned, that's all.

Regards,

Coff

"NOYB" wrote in message
om...
My dad has been trying to talk to someone at Dell computers about an error
they made, and all he keeps reaching are ex-7-11 employees. I figure that
the latest trend of using foreign speaking people in customer support
won't
last long once the customer satisfaction polling data comes in.


snip
You and Dave are unflagging supporters of an unregulated free market system.
Enjoy the fruits of your most perfect system. Considering that you both have
complained loud and long about any form of restriction or regulation of
companies, you have absolutely no right to complain about what you are
getting. Enjoy it.

You used to be able to go to the hardware store and ask the man about a barn
hinge and the owner could tell you what he had, and discuss alternative in a
knowledgeable way. Of course, that corner hardware store has been driven out
of business by Wal-Mart. When you go to Wal-Mart, the "help" there can tell
you the isle where that sort of thing might be found; if they carry it. With
any luck at all, that knowledgeable former owner of the old hardware store
is now working as a greeter (low paid security staff) in the front of the
store.

This is the inevitable result of driving the wages down using the free
market. Your orders are filled wrong at the fast food restaurant, your
support at Dell sucks. The telephone is answered by a machine that does not
have the answer to your question.

As long as the only measure of the success of the economic system is how
much money changes hands, then issues like quality of life and quality of
services delivered will be taken off the table. A few will get the best of
everything, the rest will get the lowest common denominator.

This is the tyranny of "good enough". As long as there is a cost associated
with delivering better service, no company can afford to spend the money to
do effective support if it will raise the prices. At the time of purchase,
all the majority of the customers look at is the price and features. The one
or two souls that might pay a few bucks for quality service can't support a
big firm like Dell.

I will go out on a limb and predict that this mediocrity will continue and
be compounded as the economy worsens. The split between the few and the many
will continue to widen as the middle class continues to crumble. If you
think that millions of professional class jobs will be created to fill the
blue collar losses, then you are seeing some opportunity that are not
apparent from looking at the help wanted pages. If you continue to spout
this Pollyanna position, then I would ask you to explain were these jobs
will come from and why they won't be outsourced. I don't think you can.
Since there is not substance to your position, all I expect lots of
meaningless generalities and no specifics.

If you reject my starting premise (regulation of the market to achieve
social goals) then it is up to you to explain how things will be fixed.

Don't even ask how I would change the system. Homey don't play that game no
mo. It is being broken so badly that I am not sure that it can be fixed. The
needed medicine is so threatening to the supporters of both political
parties that is inconceivable that any politician could put them in place
unless there was a dire need. My answers I have are so far from current
policy that they will not seem relevant until we see the return of large
crowds of angry and unemployed homeless, like we had in the 30's. Thank God
we are hanging on to the right to bear arms; this may become useful in a
social crash. On the other hand, so are the desperate poor.

The unthinking and uneducated don't seem capable of working through the
inevitable output of current wrong-headed political decisions. To my way of
thinking, we have already been driven over the cliff, it is just a matter of
crashing to the ground. I don't see any way around this outcome unless some
very big changes occur; considering the blindness of the current political
leaders, this in not going to happen. Remember that things looked pretty
good in the roaring 20's. Until the inevitable crash, you just keep your
eyes shut tight and cross your fingers. It will do as much good as the
actions of the current political leadership.

Mark Browne

My suggestion would be to get into the health care industry. An aging
population has tremendous needs that are growing in leaps and bounds. You
don't even need to be a provider (ie--dr. or nurse). There are thousands of
companies that manufacturer or distribute health care items and
pharmaceuticals. The demand grows every day.

Conversely, the House recently passed legislation that would allow patients
to purchase prescription drugs from abroad for less money. The Senate is
not likely to pass it, and the White House has vowed to veto it.

The opponents argue that there are safety and quality issues at stake. Who
knows for sure.

On one hand, it'd be great for Americans to have access to certain drugs at
huge savings (for example, 1 month of tamoxifen for $60 instead of $360),
but this law would just force more American companies to search for even
cheaper ways to produce the drugs...and consequently lose more American jobs
in the process.

We really live in a screwed up society. Americans want to pay as little as
possible for something, but then whine when the product is junk, service is
poor, or domestic jobs are lost. Meanwhile, they want their 401-K's to
return 15% per year. So the corporations, in the interest of returning that
much-desired cheap product *and* a high return on their stock, cut expenses
and move the jobs overseas. People bitch that jobs are lost, but refuse to
pay more for the products if the jobs were kept here.

It used to be "you got what you paid for". That meant you got good service
when you paid a premium for it. The problems began when consumers started
demanding *both* the cheap product *and* the good service. Of course, the
corporations' profit margins fell when they tried to be everything to
everybody...so they either had to raise prices (no way in today's "best deal
mentality" society!)...or cut expenses and send the jobs overseas.

How did we get here? Well, one possibility is that it came from today's
"the World owes me" attitude. Things that were considered luxuries are now
considered necessities. Every family *must* have 2 or more cars, a half
dozen or more TV's, the latest footwear, the fastest computer, high speed
internet, etc.

If everybody would remember this saying, it just might be the answer to the
hemorrhage of jobs flowing out of this country:

"Ther bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of the low
price is gone."

We can no longer have both, folks. It was fun while it lasted, but it's
really begun to take a toll on our country and our working class.

You used to be able to go to the hardware store and ask the man about a barn
hinge and the owner could tell you what he had, and discuss alternative in a
knowledgeable way. Of course, that corner hardware store has been driven out
of business by Wal-Mart. When you go to Wal-Mart, the "help" there can tell
you the isle where that sort of thing might be found; if they carry it. With
any luck at all, that knowledgeable former owner of the old hardware store
is now working as a greeter (low paid security staff) in the front of the
store.

This is the inevitable result of driving the wages down using the free
market. Your orders are filled wrong at the fast food restaurant, your
support at Dell sucks. The telephone is answered by a machine that does not
have the answer to your question.

As long as the only measure of the success of the economic system is how
much money changes hands, then issues like quality of life and quality of
services delivered will be taken off the table. A few will get the best of
everything, the rest will get the lowest common denominator.


I got an eye-opening insight into the current economy at Home Depot. I bought a
small truckload of bathtubs, sinks, toilets, faucets, etc recently. As the cast
iron tubs are almost 300 lb apiece and Mama didn't raise too big-or at least
too strong- a fool, I opted for the $55 delivery. (Anything between one item
and a whole truckload is a flat $55)

A nice young man followed us around with a notepad and kept track of all the
fixtures we picked out. As we waited to get written up at the Special Services
counter, we chatted with the guy and discovered he had to take the job clerking
at the Depot with five years of college and a degree in physics!

Not too many years ago, I knew a guy who went to work in the paint dept at Home
D.
He had a lot of knowledge about paint. They started him at $9 and hour, and
after
about a year raised him to $10. My friend was convinced that he would be on the
fast track to management, which at the time meant working about 60 hours a
week, supervising 45 employees, and being responsible for a branch store doing
over a $million volume on a busy weekend. The managers made annual salaries of
$50-60k at that time........

So the articulate, intelligent young guy with a physics degree? The kind of
nice guy I wish my daughter would meet? If he works really hard and is willing
to shoulder a huge responsibility, and if he plays his corporate politics
properly, he'll get to work up to a middle class wage- eventually- if he stays
at Home Depot and is really lucky.

My paint selling friend moved to another store after a couple of years. He is
now pretty disillusioned about his actual prospects to become the (woo woo)
"manager."

"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:ubZYa.101715$uu5.14588@sccrnsc04...


You used to be able to go to the hardware store and ask the man about a
barn
hinge and the owner could tell you what he had, and discuss alternative in
a
knowledgeable way. Of course, that corner hardware store has been driven
out
of business by Wal-Mart.

Actually, small hardware stores are thriving around here (Rochester NY).
There's been a huge backlash against Wal Mart, the BORG and a couple of
others.

Since Walmart is trading at it's 52 week high, I'd say that Rochester's
"huge backlash" isn't working out so well, is it?



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news
"Mark Browne" wrote in message
news:ubZYa.101715$uu5.14588@sccrnsc04...


You used to be able to go to the hardware store and ask the man about a
barn
hinge and the owner could tell you what he had, and discuss alternative
in
a
knowledgeable way. Of course, that corner hardware store has been driven
out
of business by Wal-Mart.

Actually, small hardware stores are thriving around here (Rochester NY).
There's been a huge backlash against Wal Mart, the BORG and a couple of
others.

It's all relative, professor. If customers are waiting 1/2 hour for paint
advice in a neighborhood hardware store, LIKING it, and telling their
friends about the place, that's pretty huge for the hardware store, don't
you think? Especially if the store's just one of three in the city whose
staff who really knows how to make miniscule pigment adjustments to match
odd colors. Meanwhile, at Wal Mart: "Pigment? Mah uncle Jasper useta have
pigment, but he got skin cancer & then he epped & dahd."


"NOYB" wrote in message
link.net...
Since Walmart is trading at it's 52 week high, I'd say that Rochester's
"huge backlash" isn't working out so well, is it?