Backyard Renegade wrote:

" Tuuk" wrote in message ...
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved?

Harry could care less, he is just here to deflect Jim from having to
answer Johns question which was, something like "could he note one
time when pilots were told to go and bomb innocent folks". Of course
he could not and that is what is problematic of the Democratic party
in general, they will run with any lie if they think it will help them
fool the uninformed...


The two of you together can't count to 20 without using your toes and
fingers, so tell me...how many thousands of lives have been saved by
whatever activity you are claiming saved them.

Be definitive. You asked for a specific answer; you ought to be prepared
to give one. And don't forget to offer proof of your answer.

"Jim" wrote in message

What would you expect them to say to a bunch of "survey takers" carrying
rifles? I'm surprised 25% had the courage to say no.

Not so, Jim. Zogby and a couple of others have been polling in Iraq since
fairly soon after major hostilities ceased. They've been very careful and
particular to ensure that polling is conducted with no other persons
present, and in an isolated fashion. They've hired local young civilians
fluent in English and the local dialects, and follow procedures similar to
those used in other countries to ensure, insofar as possible, that the
process is objective and free of taint. Polling is NOT conducted by troops,
except, of course for polls conducted directly by the Army. In those cases,
incidentally, the Army's poll results are congruent with the civilian polls.

Actually they give them descriptions also. I have a copy of an AC130 tape
and they tell them make sure they do not hit the square (or rectangle - one
of the 2) building it is a mosque. So they are also careful. I would post
it, but at about 2mb is way too big.
Bill

"Jim" wrote in message
...
The pilots orders are in the form of coordinates. Fortunately for him
(her?) he has no idea what he is bombing. I suspect that most of the
decisions aren't even made on the battlefield. Targets most likely come
from the Pentagon.

HOWEVER

Can you cite any attempt to shield civilians from attack? i.e., DO NOT
bomb here -- it's a hospital, or such.

John H wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:21:25 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


John H wrote:


On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:


In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have
been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended
Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no
wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes

from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to

the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds?
When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


We've dropped plenty of bombs on plenty of villages in Iraq, and, by the
standards of modern warfare, these villages were either undefended
entirely, or were "defended" by a small rabble of irregulars whose
actions were small-scale and had nothing to do with the village, but,
rather, with saving their own skins. There are counts kept of the
non-combatant Iraqi civilians we have killed. The numbers are in the
thousands.

You think playing your "literalist" games gives you an argument? It only
makes you the bigger fool.

Is this what they taught you in the military? Amorality?


Read the question, Harry. "Can you provide an instance where an
American soldier was told that he was to drop bombs on an undefended
village and then proceeded to do so?"

If you can't answer the question, go play mosquito somewhere else.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:46:59 -0500, Jim wrote:

The pilots orders are in the form of coordinates. Fortunately for him
(her?) he has no idea what he is bombing. I suspect that most of the
decisions aren't even made on the battlefield. Targets most likely come
from the Pentagon.

HOWEVER

Can you cite any attempt to shield civilians from attack? i.e., DO NOT
bomb here -- it's a hospital, or such.

John H wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:21:25 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


John H wrote:


On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:


In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes

from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to

the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds? When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


We've dropped plenty of bombs on plenty of villages in Iraq, and, by the
standards of modern warfare, these villages were either undefended
entirely, or were "defended" by a small rabble of irregulars whose
actions were small-scale and had nothing to do with the village, but,
rather, with saving their own skins. There are counts kept of the
non-combatant Iraqi civilians we have killed. The numbers are in the
thousands.

You think playing your "literalist" games gives you an argument? It only
makes you the bigger fool.

Is this what they taught you in the military? Amorality?


Read the question, Harry. "Can you provide an instance where an
American soldier was told that he was to drop bombs on an undefended
village and then proceeded to do so?"

If you can't answer the question, go play mosquito somewhere else.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

I didn't make the comparisons of American soldiers to Nazi war
criminals. I don't think Adolf Eichman 'accidentally' put a couple
million Jews through the crematoriums as 'collateral damage'. I
therefore don't think the comparison was appropriate.

As to your question, "Can you cite any attempt to shield civilians
from attack? i.e., DO NOT bomb here -- it's a hospital, or such."

I would only suggest you look at any news coverage of Baghdad. You
willl see buildings including mosques, hospitals, castles, etc. still
standing. The US could have easily (and cheaply) levelled every
structure in the city, but chose instead to hit only specific targets.
Were there some strays? Yes. But to imply that the US military is in
the same league as Mr. Eichman and associates is somewhat extreme and
reflects quite unfavorably on the dimwits espousing the view for their
agenda.

There, I've sunk to name-calling.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 04:50:37 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

Actually they give them descriptions also. I have a copy of an AC130 tape
and they tell them make sure they do not hit the square (or rectangle - one
of the 2) building it is a mosque. So they are also careful. I would post
it, but at about 2mb is way too big.
Bill

"Jim" wrote in message
...
The pilots orders are in the form of coordinates. Fortunately for him
(her?) he has no idea what he is bombing. I suspect that most of the
decisions aren't even made on the battlefield. Targets most likely come
from the Pentagon.

HOWEVER

Can you cite any attempt to shield civilians from attack? i.e., DO NOT
bomb here -- it's a hospital, or such.

John H wrote:
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 08:21:25 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


John H wrote:


On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:


In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have
been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended
Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no
wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes

from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to

the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds?
When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)

Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


We've dropped plenty of bombs on plenty of villages in Iraq, and, by the
standards of modern warfare, these villages were either undefended
entirely, or were "defended" by a small rabble of irregulars whose
actions were small-scale and had nothing to do with the village, but,
rather, with saving their own skins. There are counts kept of the
non-combatant Iraqi civilians we have killed. The numbers are in the
thousands.

You think playing your "literalist" games gives you an argument? It only
makes you the bigger fool.

Is this what they taught you in the military? Amorality?


Read the question, Harry. "Can you provide an instance where an
American soldier was told that he was to drop bombs on an undefended
village and then proceeded to do so?"

If you can't answer the question, go play mosquito somewhere else.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!



They will simply say you fabricated it anyway. Some folks have their
heads so far up their anal orifices that no amount of light will
penetrate.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 18:08:11 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:

Backyard Renegade wrote:

" Tuuk" wrote in message ...
Harry, do you know how many thousands of lives have been saved?

Harry could care less, he is just here to deflect Jim from having to
answer Johns question which was, something like "could he note one
time when pilots were told to go and bomb innocent folks". Of course
he could not and that is what is problematic of the Democratic party
in general, they will run with any lie if they think it will help them
fool the uninformed...


The two of you together can't count to 20 without using your toes and
fingers, so tell me...how many thousands of lives have been saved by
whatever activity you are claiming saved them.

Be definitive. You asked for a specific answer; you ought to be prepared
to give one. And don't forget to offer proof of your answer.

Read the question, Harry. "Can you provide an instance where an
American soldier was told that he was to drop bombs on an undefended
village and then proceeded to do so?"

If you can't answer the question, go play mosquito somewhere else.

Neither I nor anyone else made claims of 'saving lives'. But since you
ask:
*********************************************
Society for Animal Welfare Opens in Baghdad With Soldiers’ Help

by Spc. Chad D. Wilkerson, 372nd MPAD

BAGHDAD, Iraq – The Coalition forces’ contributions to the nation of
Iraq are focused toward improving the lives of its citizens. In some
cases, however, the benefits are not limited only to humans.

With the help of military personnel from 1st Armored Division and V
Corps and funding from the 22nd Signal Brigade, Iraqi veterinarians
cut the grand opening ribbon at the Iraqi Society for Animal Welfare
in central Baghdad Jan 21.

The society, made up of military and civilian veterinarians and
ministry officials, was formed to address the growing need for animal
control in Baghdad.

“It is the first of its kind in the country,” said Capt. William
Sumner, arts, monuments and archives officer for the 354th Civil
Affairs Brigade, an Army Reserve unit from Riverdale, Md., part of
Task Force 1st Armored Division. “The society will provide services
similar to our Humane Society in the U.S.”

Sumner said the studies of Iraq’s canine population revealed startling
results. Because one litter of pups can multiply into 69,000 dogs
within one year, the dog population in Iraq could cause problems on a
national scale if left unchecked.

“Diseases like leishmaniasis and rabies are problems related to dogs
and pose a real threat to Iraqis,” said Sumner. “Our organization will
be able to begin addressing these kinds of animal issues.”

The Iraqi Society for Animal Welfare will aid in providing solutions
to problems like canine overpopulation and disease control. It will
also provide adoption and spay and neuter programs, he said.

Until recently, cultural taboos involving animal care in Iraq
restricted progress and awareness. Dr. Farah Murrani, assistant
director of Baghdad Zoo and director of the Iraqi Society for Animal
Welfare, is an English-speaking Iraqi veterinarian who joined the zoo
staff last spring and acted as a liaison between Iraqi zoo workers,
U.S. Army veterinarians and civil affairs Soldiers.

Murrani’s willingness to touch and treat “unclean” animals, and her
heartfelt desire to aid her country, made her a prime candidate to
lead this new animal care center, Sumner said.

“I am a veterinarian, so I am doing what I know how to do in order to
help the people of Iraq and aid the reconstruction,” said Murrani.

Sumner, whose experience with zoo planning and operations allowed him
to play an important role in the establishment of the new animal
welfare organization, said the society’s formation is a first step
toward a safer and animal-friendly country.

“This is the first step in establishing an animal control program here
in Baghdad. We hope it will extend throughout Iraq,” said Sumner. “The
society is designed not only to help prevent animal cruelty, but to
raise the overall awareness of the public for animals in Baghdad.”
************************************************** **8

Now go buzz somewhere else.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

If you post O.T.your a dumbazz,if you post o.t. with a false name , you are a
coward and and Azhole!

"Calif Bill" wrote in message hlink.net...
Actually they give them descriptions also. I have a copy of an AC130 tape
and they tell them make sure they do not hit the square (or rectangle - one
of the 2) building it is a mosque. So they are also careful. I would post
it, but at about 2mb is way too big.
Bill

Oh, please do. I'd LOVE to hear it.

John H wrote:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:26:51 -0500, Jim wrote:


In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages -- well, he must do what he is told to do and there's no wiggle
room. He is ruled by people with divine rights; the power that comes

from holding one hand on a bible and keeping the other outstretched to

the oil oligarchy.

What is the wing opening in the sky? What is darkening the clouds? When
does it descend in all its ominous power?
"The best lack all convictions, while the worst Are full of passionate
intensity." (Yeats)


Can you provide an instance where an American soldier was told that he
was to drop bombs on an undefended village and then proceeded to do
so?

Tokyo and Dresden to name 2 cities that were firebombed in WW2. NEither
had military importance, and Thousands of civilians were killed. The
bombing of Hanoi was indiscriminate


I thought not. Now, what is the rest of your post worth?

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

Jim wrote in message ...
In 1946, the Nuremberg Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of
aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme
international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it
contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Nuremberg also taught us that "just following orders" is not an excuse
for what the winning side declares to be war crimes. So while the
Germans couldn't get off the hook, neither can the Iraqis, who have been
told from the beginning of the invasion that if they DID follow their
leaders' orders, they would be tried for war crimes. And yet, the
sensitive American soldier who is told to drop bombs on undefended Iraqi
villages

Please show us proof that Americans were told to "drop bombs on
undefended Iraqi villages? Here we go again, another thread based on
pure lies and specualation in the interest of swaying folks to your
side. Yeah, that's the type of leadership we need here in this
country. Like Kerry, we should have waited in Iraq where there were
over a half million men women and children killed and every legit
country and organization in the world knows there indeed were/are WMD
but in Haiti where less than 80 folks have been killed and there are
few signs that anyone there wants anything different, we should have
run in to the slaugher days ago.. Wouldn't you and Harry have loved
that, dozens of American soliders and Hatian civilians killed, but
hey, if it get Kerry elected...