"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 16:53:43 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Grumman-581" wrote in
message
m...


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americ...rants.truck.ap
/
index.html

I think I would have been tempted to let them continue on towards the
US
due
to their creativeness...


It's funny. The president says we're trying to spread the word about
freedom
and democracy, but when the occasional handful want to come here, we send
them back to a regime we've considered evil since its inception.


Why do the Cubans have more right to be here than _______ fill in the
blank?

Seniority? Longest time in the barrel? :-)

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Grumman-581" wrote in
message
...


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americ...ants.truck.ap/
index.html

I think I would have been tempted to let them continue on towards the
US
due
to their creativeness...


It's funny. The president says we're trying to spread the word about
freedom
and democracy, but when the occasional handful want to come here, we
send
them back to a regime we've considered evil since its inception.


Nothing "funny" about it. We have a legal process which a potential
immigrant can use to gain entry here. If you try to circumvent that
process, you deserve to get sent back.

Dave


No fruit or vegetables for you, Dave, for an entire year. Or, you can openly
admit your understanding that of all the produce picked HERE IN THIS
COUNTRY, 80% of the labor is done by illegals and YOU LIKE EATING THE
RESULTS.

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:07:30 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Grumman-581" wrote in
message
...


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americ...ants.truck.ap/
index.html

I think I would have been tempted to let them continue on towards the
US
due
to their creativeness...


It's funny. The president says we're trying to spread the word about
freedom
and democracy, but when the occasional handful want to come here, we
send
them back to a regime we've considered evil since its inception.


Nothing "funny" about it. We have a legal process which a potential
immigrant can use to gain entry here. If you try to circumvent that
process, you deserve to get sent back.

Dave


No fruit or vegetables for you, Dave, for an entire year. Or, you can openly
admit your understanding that of all the produce picked HERE IN THIS
COUNTRY, 80% of the labor is done by illegals and YOU LIKE EATING THE
RESULTS.


That's a poor excuse for breaking the law, and certainly an even poorer
justification for it.

Dave


Dave- you must have missed the post by (I think) Chuck Gould, where he
described how the government is complicite in allowing illegals to
harvest time-sensitive crops, because noone else is willing to work
for slave wages, but corporate farms need the labor.

You are so ideologically constipated that you cannot see.

When you exceed the speed limit, do you wear sackcloth and ashes?
noah

Courtesy of Lee Yeaton,
See the boats of rec.boats
www.TheBayGuide.com/rec.boats

attn cubans, the US is 182 degrees South of cuba!

"noah" wrote in message
...


You are so ideologically constipated that you cannot see.

When you exceed the speed limit, do you wear sackcloth and ashes?
noah


ROFL! You come up with some perfect word combinations, particularly for
Dave. :-)

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

Nothing "funny" about it. We have a legal process which a potential
immigrant can use to gain entry here. If you try to circumvent that
process, you deserve to get sent back.

Dave


No fruit or vegetables for you, Dave, for an entire year. Or, you can
openly
admit your understanding that of all the produce picked HERE IN THIS
COUNTRY, 80% of the labor is done by illegals and YOU LIKE EATING THE
RESULTS.


That's a poor excuse for breaking the law, and certainly an even poorer
justification for it.

Dave


You have a short memory. In other threads, you've suggested that people who
aid terrorists are accessories to the acts of terrorism,

I don't recall making that statement. But I would agree that people who
do aid terrorists, are accessories to the crime, if they are aware of
the acts at which they are engaged in.
Unlike Arianna Huffington though, I do not make the connection between
use of SUV's and contributing to terrorism, becasue some percentage of
oil profit may be routed to people who support terrorism. We, as the
general population, have no direct control over that.

and that people who
help the illegal drug market thrive by purchasing illegal drugs are also
contributing to lawlessness.

That's not exactly the way I stated it, but it's close enough.


Based on your way of thinking, you are an
accessory to a crime. Every time you eat fruits or vegetables without first
determining who picked it, trimmed it, washed it and packed it, you are an
accessory to a crime.

That's ridiculous. Fruits and vegetables are not illegal. The people who
market them are not either. Therefore, you cannot be accountable for the
origin of those products. Now, if someone were to market fruits and
vegetables as "No illegal workers were used to pick these", and charged
twice the price, and you still bought from other sources, you might be
making a valid point.


Finally, since I'm 100% positive you will do nothing
to change the way the grocery business works, you are no better than a cop
on the street who looks the other way when drugs are being sold on the
corner.

You have a strange way of applying logic. No wonder you're a
liberal.....

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

Doug Kanter wrote:

Based on your way of thinking, you are an
accessory to a crime. Every time you eat fruits or vegetables without
first
determining who picked it, trimmed it, washed it and packed it, you are
an
accessory to a crime.

That's ridiculous. Fruits and vegetables are not illegal. The people who
market them are not either.

You have a VERY short attention span. We're not talking about the
wholesalers who market produce or the grocery retailers you buy from. We're
talking about the people at the beginning of the chain who pick the stuff -
the people who enter this country illegally each year, the ones you have
said are breaking the law.

I've explained to you that around 80% of your produce is picked by these
criminals (your definition). By purchasing fruits and vegetables, you are an
accessory to that crime. And, by saying that the people who market the stuff
aren't breaking the law, you hope to exonerate yourself, but that holds no
water. You are patronizing criminals in precisely the same way as a junky
patronizes a drug dealer.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


No fruit or vegetables for you, Dave, for an entire year. Or, you can
openly
admit your understanding that of all the produce picked HERE IN THIS
COUNTRY, 80% of the labor is done by illegals and YOU LIKE EATING THE
RESULTS.

That's a poor excuse for breaking the law, and certainly an even poorer
justification for it.

Dave


Dave- you must have missed the post by (I think) Chuck Gould, where he
described how the government is complicite in allowing illegals to
harvest time-sensitive crops, because noone else is willing to work
for slave wages, but corporate farms need the labor.

Yea so? So are you just as complicit in allowing a clearly illegal
practice to continue?

You are way too hung up on the word "illegal". This segment of farm labor is
illegal because their presence used to take jobs from citizens who were
willing to work for minimum wage. Nowadays, people are more likely to weigh
the wage against the work being done. They'll accept minimum wage for easy
retail work, but not for bending over 400 times a day in a hot field and
swinging a razor sharp knife in the vicinity of their ankles (using cabbage
picking as an example). Laborers come from places like Mexico because
minimum wage here is far better than the $8 a WEEK they could make back
home. I defy you to find enough American citizens willing to take their
places.


If the pool of illegal labor were to go away, what would happen? I'll
tell you. Either they growers would develop better technology to replace
human labor with machines...

You are obviously not a gardener. Some crops are too delicate for
"technology". Corn harvesting pretty much reached the pinnacle of
"technology" fifty years ago, as did wheat and other grains. Other crops
will always require human hands, especially those which end up in the
produce department rather than in cans or frozen. Only human hands can
assure that these crops are presentable to the customer.

or they would (by the force of supply and
demand), have to raise their labor rates, until they were able to hire
local people. Yes, that would cause the prices to rise, but that's not
the germaine issue.

It's not??? Are you ready to pay 3 times more for your food? What portion of
your budget goes for food? Multiply by 3 and tell me how quickly you'd be in
your boss' office looking for a massive raise, along with all of your
coworkers.


You are so ideologically constipated that you cannot see.

Really? I see things very clearly. Maybe because I don't spend my time
making excuses and exeptions for things that should not be.


Yes you do, Dave. You're the guy who told me it's not worth your trouble to
deal with your town council to get things changed. You gave me a laundry
list of excuses why participating in local decisions rarely worked.

Doug Kanter wrote:

Yea so? So are you just as complicit in allowing a clearly illegal
practice to continue?

You are way too hung up on the word "illegal".

It is the germaine issue. What part of "illegal" do you not understand?
Those people do not belong here, unless theygo through the proper
channels to immigrate legally. All you have done thusfar, is to attempt
to justify their illegal actions, and the actions of those who "look the
other way" by hiring them. It still doesn't make it right.


This segment of farm labor is
illegal because their presence used to take jobs from citizens who were
willing to work for minimum wage. Nowadays, people are more likely to weigh
the wage against the work being done. They'll accept minimum wage for easy
retail work, but not for bending over 400 times a day in a hot field and
swinging a razor sharp knife in the vicinity of their ankles (using cabbage
picking as an example). Laborers come from places like Mexico because
minimum wage here is far better than the $8 a WEEK they could make back
home. I defy you to find enough American citizens willing to take their
places.

All well and good, but it's still ILLEGAL.



If the pool of illegal labor were to go away, what would happen? I'll
tell you. Either they growers would develop better technology to replace
human labor with machines...

You are obviously not a gardener. Some crops are too delicate for
"technology".

They said the same thing about cotton until Eli Whitney came along.....


Corn harvesting pretty much reached the pinnacle of
"technology" fifty years ago, as did wheat and other grains. Other crops
will always require human hands, especially those which end up in the
produce department rather than in cans or frozen. Only human hands can
assure that these crops are presentable to the customer.

How myopic you are. You are declaring defeat before even exploring the
possibility.


or they would (by the force of supply and
demand), have to raise their labor rates, until they were able to hire
local people. Yes, that would cause the prices to rise, but that's not
the germaine issue.

It's not??? Are you ready to pay 3 times more for your food? What portion of
your budget goes for food? Multiply by 3 and tell me how quickly you'd be in
your boss' office looking for a massive raise, along with all of your
coworkers.

Ah! So what is it then? In this circle jerk of an economic discussion,
on the one hand I have you guys on the left complaining about the
substandard wages that the "working poor" are being paid. Then on the
other hand, you complain that if we pay people are "reasonable wage"
that the increase in costs would be too much for consumers to bear. You
use this as some sort of loose justification for remaining complicit in
the illegal immigrant labor practices. Yet we are doing nothing more
than forstering and encouraging a "slave labor" class of worker. Mark
talks about the "slave class" of people doing menial jobs, and how
idealogically wrong it is, yet neither one of you can resolve the issue
of cheap goods versus the elimination of the "slave class". You can't
have it both ways. Which do you want?



You are so ideologically constipated that you cannot see.

Really? I see things very clearly. Maybe because I don't spend my time
making excuses and exeptions for things that should not be.


Yes you do, Dave. You're the guy who told me it's not worth your trouble to
deal with your town council to get things changed. You gave me a laundry
list of excuses why participating in local decisions rarely worked.

Sorry if the voice of experience troubles you. I'm telling you how it
is, and has been, in my area. You, of course, translate that to mean
that I'm not willing to "do" anything. I assure you that that is not the
case, although I'm not about to endure harrassment or other problems to
push my agenda, unless I have broad support.

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


That's ridiculous. Fruits and vegetables are not illegal. The people
who
market them are not either.

You have a VERY short attention span.

No, you just have a poor way of utilizing analogies to make a very weak
point.



I've explained to you that around 80% of your produce is picked by these
criminals (your definition). By purchasing fruits and vegetables, you
are an
accessory to that crime. And, by saying that the people who market the
stuff
aren't breaking the law, you hope to exonerate yourself, but that holds
no
water. You are patronizing criminals in precisely the same way as a
junky
patronizes a drug dealer.

You can explain it a dozen times, using different words, but it still
doesn't make it true, nor your logic any less flawed.

To be an accessory to a crime, you have to be either a willing
participant in it, or have direct knowlege of the crime.

1) You are a willing participant because nobody puts a gun to your head and
makes you buy produce.

2) You *do* have direct knowledge of it because when the issue of migrants
is reported on TV, local farmers are often interviewed so they can explain
why this type of labor is necessary. Therefore, you know it exists.

3) If you need further proof, hop in the car and drive a couple of hours
West from Philadelphia or South in Maryland or Deleware and get off the main
roads. See for yourself.