"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


It's not??? Are you ready to pay 3 times more for your food? What
portion of
your budget goes for food? Multiply by 3 and tell me how quickly you'd
be in
your boss' office looking for a massive raise, along with all of your
coworkers.

Ah! So what is it then? In this circle jerk of an economic discussion,
on the one hand I have you guys on the left complaining about the
substandard wages that the "working poor" are being paid. Then on the
other hand, you complain that if we pay people are "reasonable wage"
that the increase in costs would be too much for consumers to bear. You
use this as some sort of loose justification for remaining complicit in
the illegal immigrant labor practices. Yet we are doing nothing more
than forstering and encouraging a "slave labor" class of worker. Mark
talks about the "slave class" of people doing menial jobs, and how
idealogically wrong it is, yet neither one of you can resolve the issue
of cheap goods versus the elimination of the "slave class". You can't
have it both ways. Which do you want?

Well, then the simplest solution is simply to focus on the fact that the
people are breaking the law. That way, the responsibility can be pushed off
onto someone else. Sort of like blaming Satan for bad things that are
unexplainable.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


That's ridiculous. Fruits and vegetables are not illegal. The people
who
market them are not either.

You have a VERY short attention span.

No, you just have a poor way of utilizing analogies to make a very weak
point.


I've explained to you that around 80% of your produce is picked by these
criminals (your definition). By purchasing fruits and vegetables, you
are an
accessory to that crime. And, by saying that the people who market the
stuff
aren't breaking the law, you hope to exonerate yourself, but that holds
no
water. You are patronizing criminals in precisely the same way as a
junky
patronizes a drug dealer.

You can explain it a dozen times, using different words, but it still
doesn't make it true, nor your logic any less flawed.

To be an accessory to a crime, you have to be either a willing
participant in it, or have direct knowlege of the crime.

1) You are a willing participant because nobody puts a gun to your head and
makes you buy produce.

Buying produce is not criminal.


2) You *do* have direct knowledge of it because when the issue of migrants
is reported on TV, local farmers are often interviewed so they can explain
why this type of labor is necessary. Therefore, you know it exists.

I've never seen such interviews. I hear politicians talk about it, but I
don't know which farmers are using what labor. Not all of them use
migrant workers. It's a virtual impossibility for me to know which
vegetables come from what farms.


3) If you need further proof, hop in the car and drive a couple of hours
West from Philadelphia or South in Maryland or Deleware and get off the main
roads. See for yourself.


I've got news for you, I LIVE about an hour and a half west of phila. I
go about 2 or 3 miles up the road, and I'm in farmland. About a dozen or
so miles to the southwest, and I'm in Amish country. Last time I looked,
the Amish aren't using illegal immigrants. Neither are the Mennonites or
many other the other farmers in my area.

Most of the Hispanics that I see, work for landscapers. Are they legal?
I don't know. But I do know that I cut my own grass.

Dave

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


It's not??? Are you ready to pay 3 times more for your food? What
portion of
your budget goes for food? Multiply by 3 and tell me how quickly you'd
be in
your boss' office looking for a massive raise, along with all of your
coworkers.

Ah! So what is it then? In this circle jerk of an economic discussion,
on the one hand I have you guys on the left complaining about the
substandard wages that the "working poor" are being paid. Then on the
other hand, you complain that if we pay people are "reasonable wage"
that the increase in costs would be too much for consumers to bear. You
use this as some sort of loose justification for remaining complicit in
the illegal immigrant labor practices. Yet we are doing nothing more
than forstering and encouraging a "slave labor" class of worker. Mark
talks about the "slave class" of people doing menial jobs, and how
idealogically wrong it is, yet neither one of you can resolve the issue
of cheap goods versus the elimination of the "slave class". You can't
have it both ways. Which do you want?

Well, then the simplest solution is simply to focus on the fact that the
people are breaking the law.

Then you and I are in agreement on this point then.

That way, the responsibility can be pushed off
onto someone else.

Is that how the left works? All too good at identifying problems, but
falling far short on solutions?

Dave

All of this "illegals picking tomatoes" ignores the fact that when US tomatoes
cost too much to deliver to market they will be grown in Mexico where "legal"
Mexicans will be picking them.
This is not that isolated a problem. In 2000 the farmers in Palm Beach County
plowed their tomato crop under because they couldn't afford to pick them and
get them to market at the NAFTA price (and people wonder why 3000 people voted
for Buchanan in that county)

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:09:07 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

noah wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:07:30 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:

"Grumman-581" wrote in
message
...


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/americ...ants.truck.ap/
index.html

I think I would have been tempted to let them continue on towards the
US
due
to their creativeness...


It's funny. The president says we're trying to spread the word about
freedom
and democracy, but when the occasional handful want to come here, we
send
them back to a regime we've considered evil since its inception.


Nothing "funny" about it. We have a legal process which a potential
immigrant can use to gain entry here. If you try to circumvent that
process, you deserve to get sent back.

Dave


No fruit or vegetables for you, Dave, for an entire year. Or, you can openly
admit your understanding that of all the produce picked HERE IN THIS
COUNTRY, 80% of the labor is done by illegals and YOU LIKE EATING THE
RESULTS.


That's a poor excuse for breaking the law, and certainly an even poorer
justification for it.

Dave


Dave- you must have missed the post by (I think) Chuck Gould, where he
described how the government is complicite in allowing illegals to
harvest time-sensitive crops, because noone else is willing to work
for slave wages, but corporate farms need the labor.

Yea so? So are you just as complicit in allowing a clearly illegal
practice to continue?

Dave, you are preaching to the choir. I *know* that I have no control
over what the government does.


If the pool of illegal labor were to go away, what would happen? I'll
tell you. Either they growers would develop better technology to replace
human labor with machines, or they would (by the force of supply and
demand), have to raise their labor rates, until they were able to hire
local people. Yes, that would cause the prices to rise, but that's not
the germaine issue.


You are so ideologically constipated that you cannot see.

Really? I see things very clearly. Maybe because I don't spend my time
making excuses and exeptions for things that should not be.

This statement is patently untrue. The government, "our" government,
does things daily that "should not be". I make no excuses and pull no
punches. From reading your posts, you see this too, but you don't
want to admit the failings. Patriotism DEMANDS critical thought- no
matter where your allegiance or affilliation lies.

Dave

noah

Courtesy of Lee Yeaton,
See the boats of rec.boats
www.TheBayGuide.com/rec.boats

"Dave Hall" wrote ...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Well, then the simplest solution is simply to focus on the fact that the
people are breaking the law.

Then you and I are in agreement on this point then.

And just because something is against the law, it makes it wrong? Nawh,
don't think so... Just because something is legal, it doesn't make it moral
and just because something is illegal, it doesn't make it immoral... Some
cops understand this and refuse to enforce the bull**** laws that they see
coming out of the braindead politicians... Most are more than willing to
enforce whatever they are told to enforce... When you question them on it,
they come up with excuses like, "Well, I am just doing my job", or "just
following orders"... That excuse didn't cut it at Nuremburg and it doesn't
cut it now...

noah wrote:

Really? I see things very clearly. Maybe because I don't spend my time
making excuses and exeptions for things that should not be.

This statement is patently untrue. The government, "our" government,
does things daily that "should not be". I make no excuses and pull no
punches. From reading your posts, you see this too, but you don't
want to admit the failings. Patriotism DEMANDS critical thought- no
matter where your allegiance or affilliation lies.

That's almost funny. Here the left is always spouting about the
shortcomings of our government, and how they don't trust it to keep
terrorists at bay, and to make the world a better place for freedom, and
human rights. Yet, they want the same government, to be the
administrators of healthcare, day care, our retirement funds, and to
weigh in on lifestyle issues.

It sounds somewhat hypocritical to me.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:


That's almost funny. Here the left is always spouting about the
shortcomings of our government, and how they don't trust it to keep
terrorists at bay

There's no evidence the Bush Administration is keeping terrorists at bay.


, and to make the world a better place for freedom,

There's no evidence the Bush Administration is making the world a better
place for freedom. In fact, the opposite is true.

and
human rights.

You mean oil rights, and the rights to exploit third-world workers with
near-slave wages, right?



Yet, they want the same government, to be the
administrators of healthcare

I haven't read that proposal...surely you are not referring to a
universal health care card...


, day care

Right...you want women at home, barefoot, pregnant and subservient, right?


, our retirement funds

What a laugh.



, and to
weigh in on lifestyle issues.

Better the government than your stinking religion.



It sounds somewhat hypocritical to me.



Finally...your area of expertise.

--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

"Grumman-581" wrote in message
...
"Dave Hall" wrote ...
Doug Kanter wrote:

Well, then the simplest solution is simply to focus on the fact that
the
people are breaking the law.

Then you and I are in agreement on this point then.

And just because something is against the law, it makes it wrong? Nawh,
don't think so... Just because something is legal, it doesn't make it
moral
and just because something is illegal, it doesn't make it immoral... Some
cops understand this and refuse to enforce the bull**** laws that they see
coming out of the braindead politicians... Most are more than willing to
enforce whatever they are told to enforce... When you question them on it,
they come up with excuses like, "Well, I am just doing my job", or "just
following orders"... That excuse didn't cut it at Nuremburg and it doesn't
cut it now...


It's fine when it's working in your favor.

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

noah wrote:

Really? I see things very clearly. Maybe because I don't spend my time
making excuses and exeptions for things that should not be.

This statement is patently untrue. The government, "our" government,
does things daily that "should not be". I make no excuses and pull no
punches. From reading your posts, you see this too, but you don't
want to admit the failings. Patriotism DEMANDS critical thought- no
matter where your allegiance or affilliation lies.

That's almost funny. Here the left is always spouting about the
shortcomings of our government, and how they don't trust it to keep
terrorists at bay, and to make the world a better place for freedom, and
human rights. Yet, they want the same government, to be the
administrators of healthcare, day care, our retirement funds, and to
weigh in on lifestyle issues.

It sounds somewhat hypocritical to me.

Dave


Dave, you are a constant source of enlightenment, especially on a Monday
morning. Please explain why we should assume that if some government
programs/plans don't work, they ALL don't/can't work.

It may be easier if you dredge up what you should've learned about
electronic gates (NAND,AND,NOR, etc). Simple logic.