Scott wonders about admission standards for most private schools:
================
Well, I wonder if this is necessarily true of all private schools.
Perhaps
for special private schools for the gifted, but I imagine that many
private
schools would be happy to admit the disabled, because they understand
that
being disabled is not the same thing as being worthless
==============

I don't know about the nature of private schools in the USA, but the
vast majority of the non-religious ones around here are modelled on the
British "public" (hence private) school model. Academic standards are a
significant part of the admission requirements (perhaps waived if mommy
and daddy have plenty of money or hoity-toity positions in the
community). So you'll not see many (any) pupils with mental
disabilities on those campuses.

frtzw906

Scott has a query about my anecdote:
==============
And when you say the parents "clearly felt that the ESL numbers
constituted
a debit," is that a presumption you made based on their putting their
gifted
daughter in private school, or did they make quotable statements to
that
effect? I suspect the former, and I question your assumptions.
==============

You suspect incorrectly: they made public statements regarding their
displeasure with the large number of ESL (English as Second Language)
students in the school.

frtzw906

Scott correctly observes:
===============
Children must be treated as INDIVIDUALS, and their INDIVIDUAL best
interests should be served by their parents, to the best of their
ability,
without regard for other students, whose educations are the
responsibility
of their parents.
==============

You are correct -- partially. Whereas the school system is mandated to
serve the individualized needs of pupils, it is also required to
protect the entire student body (the system) from the negative actions
of students who hinder the advancement of others. Just as in any
society, the INDIVIDUAL'S freedoms and rights stop where those rights
and freedoms interfere with the rights and freedoms of others. So it is
in schools as well.

frtzw906

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN contributes:
===============
You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see
if
the results are as you expect.

What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than
anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They
want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who
spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.

They also need a curriculum that meets their needs....

None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class... What is
happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his
pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an
environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone
else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all
sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.
=================

WOW! KMAN, your insights are bang-on.

frtzw906

Only because I have been involved with people with intellectual disabilities
and their families for almost twenty years in a variety of capacities -
particularly...listening.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Scott has a query about my anecdote:
==============
And when you say the parents "clearly felt that the ESL numbers
constituted
a debit," is that a presumption you made based on their putting their
gifted
daughter in private school, or did they make quotable statements to
that
effect? I suspect the former, and I question your assumptions.
==============

You suspect incorrectly: they made public statements regarding their
displeasure with the large number of ESL (English as Second Language)
students in the school.

frtzw906

To be fair, Scott may not realize that "blame it on ESL" is at the core of
our public school apologistics (at least here in Ottawa).

Scott demonstrates that he's never spent any time in a school classroom
as an adult:
====================
And mainstreaming also places an undue and, at times, unfair burden
on
teachers and classmates.

Only if you believe that providing a proper educational and social
environment for someone who is already facing an enormous uphill battle
just
to survive is an "undue burden." Most people, and certainly most
socialist
egalitarianists, believe that helping the disabled is not an "undue
burden"
but is rather a mitzvah and a gift, and an opportunity to show charity
and
love and empathy and concern for those less fortunate, and a teachable
moment particularly for children (as well as ignorant, bigoted adults)
wherein the intrinsic value of every human being can be demonstrated
and the
rewards of altruistic service to others taught to impressionable youth.

====================

Scott, if you're trying to teach a lesson in arithmetic to a class of
Grade 3 pupils and are repeatedly disrupted by random vocal and
physical outbursts the, yes, that's an undue burden. A burden on the
teachers and the majority of the pupils, who, I might add, also have a
right to an education individualized so as to maximize THEIR learning.

You pose an interesting dilemma. You veer away from the line taken by
most right-wing critics of the educational system. Most such critics
make the case that far too much time is taken up with mamby-pamby, soft
stuff like socialization, and that not enough hard-core maths, science,
reading et al are taught. So, we need to decide, during math class,
should the primary focus be on the teaching of maths or should we
repeatedly take time out for "socializing" whenever we get a random,
irrelevant outburst?

I'm sympathetic to the socialization argument. To a point. Once the
socialzation becomes an undue burden to the teachers and other pupils
(when their freedoms are being violated), then, I think, we've had
enough.

frtzw908

KMAN says:
=========
To be fair, Scott may not realize that "blame it on ESL" is at the core
of
our public school apologistics (at least here in Ottawa).
=========

KMAN, I was referring to Scott assuming I had made up this bit about
ESL; he suggested that perhaps the parents hadn't actually said it.
They had.

As to your comment: not just in Ottawa.

frtzw906

KMAN... off-thread comment: did you ever sort out the "time" issue on
your computer and 4 of your posts which still don't appear on google
because they were "sent" some time later today (but actually two days
ago)...???

frtzw906

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Scott demonstrates that he's never spent any time in a school classroom
as an adult:
====================
And mainstreaming also places an undue and, at times, unfair burden
on
teachers and classmates.

Only if you believe that providing a proper educational and social
environment for someone who is already facing an enormous uphill battle
just
to survive is an "undue burden." Most people, and certainly most
socialist
egalitarianists, believe that helping the disabled is not an "undue
burden"
but is rather a mitzvah and a gift, and an opportunity to show charity
and
love and empathy and concern for those less fortunate, and a teachable
moment particularly for children (as well as ignorant, bigoted adults)
wherein the intrinsic value of every human being can be demonstrated
and the
rewards of altruistic service to others taught to impressionable youth.

====================

Scott, if you're trying to teach a lesson in arithmetic to a class of
Grade 3 pupils and are repeatedly disrupted by random vocal and
physical outbursts the, yes, that's an undue burden. A burden on the
teachers and the majority of the pupils, who, I might add, also have a
right to an education individualized so as to maximize THEIR learning.

You pose an interesting dilemma. You veer away from the line taken by
most right-wing critics of the educational system. Most such critics
make the case that far too much time is taken up with mamby-pamby, soft
stuff like socialization, and that not enough hard-core maths, science,
reading et al are taught. So, we need to decide, during math class,
should the primary focus be on the teaching of maths or should we
repeatedly take time out for "socializing" whenever we get a random,
irrelevant outburst?

I'm sympathetic to the socialization argument. To a point. Once the
socialzation becomes an undue burden to the teachers and other pupils
(when their freedoms are being violated), then, I think, we've had
enough.

frtzw908

If I may, rather than focusing on the "burden on the teacher angle" let's
look at who it is for...students. If you are teaching Grade 6 math so that
students will be prepared for Grade 7 math, but you have 3 students with
intellectual disabilities in the class for "mainstreaming" purposes who are
still at a Grade 1 math level and trying to get to Grade 2, who is it that
the teacher is going to appropriately serve all of those needs?

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN says:
=========
To be fair, Scott may not realize that "blame it on ESL" is at the core
of
our public school apologistics (at least here in Ottawa).
=========

KMAN, I was referring to Scott assuming I had made up this bit about
ESL; he suggested that perhaps the parents hadn't actually said it.
They had.

As to your comment: not just in Ottawa.

frtzw906

LOL, OK.