Interesting story today in the Boulder Daily Camera about the Canadian
health care crisis. Page 4B.

It's by Beth Duff-Brown of the Associated Press.

"A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need
of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It
added: 'If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased,
please accept our sincere apologies.'"

The article says the patient wasn't dead, but this letter provides cold
comfort to those who obviously do die before they get medical care in
Canada, evidently in sufficient numbers to persuade health care workers to
apologize in advance.

"The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes
each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province
to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of
every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers
Federation."

Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get when
you need it. What a bargain!

"George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted to
painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and hsould
have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr. Jacques
Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated because
Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him the option
of getting it privately."

And then there's this:

"But tell that to the hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff
for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would
have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament."

So much for the "I can get private health care whenever I want in Canada"
argument...

"[A]ccording to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and North Korea
are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of insurance for
hospitalization or surgery."

....and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself even if you
want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the pain"
bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you, the individual,
suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in comradely
communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the privilege. Bleah.

It also seems that the average wait time between referral and treatment has
risen from 9.3 days to 17.9 days since 1993.

What's more, the percentage of Canadians who had same-day access to a doctor
when sick or needing medical attention is the lowest (27%) of all when
compared to New Zealand (60%), Australia (54%), Britain (41%), and the
USA (33%).

And, Canada has the lowest ratio of practicing physicians per 1000 persons
(2.1) of all when compared to Italy (4.4), Belgium (3.9), France (3.3),
Australia (2.5), and the USA (2.4).

(Sources cited in the article: Fraser Institute; Organization for Economic
Cooperation and Development; The Commonwealth Fund: Bank of Canada.)

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

Scott cites:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?

But more to the point, it would be useful if you just put out the
comparative data, without an editorial, so that people could reac
decisions based on data alone.

Here's my source: Social and Cultural Planning Office, The Hague,
September 2004

NOTE: The SCP used primarily OECD and World Bank data.

Let's check out the data, and then reach a conclusion based on data,
shall we? In each category, Canada is mentioned first, then the USA (as
in, Canada vs USA).

Total current expenditure on health ca percentage of GDP, 2000: 8.5%
vs 13%
Total current health expenditure per capita, 2000: 2400=80 vs 4100=80
Out-patient expenditure as percentage of gdp: 2.7% vs 5.9%
In-patient expenditure as percentage of GDP: 2.8% vs 3.9%
Inpatient ca beds per 1000 inhabitants, 2000: 3.9 vs 9.8
Total health employment per 1000 inhabitants, 2001 (FTE): 37 vs 38
Physicians: number per 1000 inhabitants, 2001: 2.1 vs 2.8
Nurses: number per 1000 inhabitants, 2001: 9.8 vs 8.1
Inpatient ca admissions per 1000 inhabitants, 2000: 100 vs 125
Acute ca number of patient days per capita, 2000: 0.85 vs 0.68
Non-acute inpatient ca number of patient days per capita, 2000: 0.15
vs 2.25
Outpatient consultations of physicians: number per capita, 2001: 6.1 vs
6=2E0
General practitioners per 1000 inhabitants: 1.0 vs 0.8
Acute ca occupancy rate: 87% vs 68%
Number of consultations per practising physician, 2000: 3050 vs 2020
Life expectancy at birth, 2001: 80 vs 78
Healthy life expectancy: 70 vs 67.5
Infant mortality in deaths per 1000 live births, 2001: 5 vs 6.5
Health status index, 2001: 5.6 vs 4.7 (higher is better)
Cost-effectiveness of health care, 2001: Compare health status index
with expenditure per person (Canada wins)
Rankings of countries by type of health index -
*Health status index 2001: 8th vs 19th
*SCP composite index 2001: 13th vs 18th
*WHO composite - index 1997: 4th vs 12th

On some fairly critical factors such as life expectancy, healthy life
expectancy, infant mortality, and a variety of health indices, Canada
out-performs the USA. At substatially less expenditure.

So, Scott, instead of dealing in editorials from newpapers, why not
deal in real data. What do you make of this data?

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:

Scott cites:
=============
The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in
taxes
each year,
=============

And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay?


My son and I are covered by a group insurance plan provided by my
employer, of which my employer pays 1/3. My wife is covered by her
employee insurance plan, which suddenly increased by 25%. She shopped
around for personal coverage, and inquired about coverage for the
entire family. Every insurance company she asked said they wouldn't
cover me (diabetes). She chose a BIG health insurance company for
herself, but they doubled her premiums when they found out she was
taking lipitor (statin for cholesterol). Our monthly health insurance
payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us,
health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in. Oh, we live in the good-ol U.S. of A.





--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had
admirable care. More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure.

But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

frtzw906

This is not kayak related but here goes.
Last year I had a car crash. Totalled the car but the 3 kayaks on the
roof were unhurt.
Thank God . there was a Capella An NDK Exploere and a Sealution.

My neck faired not so well and I had a little concussion. I drove to
the hospital was looked at immediately and had a secondary assesment.
Since then I have had xrays and a couple of visits to my GP.
No cost to me.... ( taxes obviously )
The physio is an insurance thing but who cares, it needs done and If I
had the time it would be free. ( In Hospital take a ticket and wait. )
There was never an issue in whether or not I could pay.
I guess I am a commie. I truly believe the folks in public housing ( oh
,, We don't have a large homeless problem in my community. ) will get
the same care. That is what reflects the values of my community.

My father had some heart problems. He got help immediately.
He passed away but it was not from lack of expertise, availability or
hospital beds.
In the end I believe we will be judged by how we treat the poorest in
society, not the wealthiest. I am pleased with Canada.
Our military is not the most powerfull ( I would like to see it better
funded. ) But we have not fely a need to reach out and touch someone in
the way GW has.
Our medical system is fine.
All the best to you and yours.
Alex McGruer

A Usenet persona calling itself wrote:

This is not kayak related but here goes.
Last year I had a car crash. Totalled the car but the 3 kayaks on the
roof were unhurt.
Thank God . there was a Capella An NDK Exploere and a Sealution.

My neck faired not so well and I had a little concussion. I drove to
the hospital was looked at immediately and had a secondary assesment.
Since then I have had xrays and a couple of visits to my GP.
No cost to me.... ( taxes obviously )
The physio is an insurance thing but who cares, it needs done and If I
had the time it would be free. ( In Hospital take a ticket and wait. )
There was never an issue in whether or not I could pay.
I guess I am a commie.

Yup, because you expect everybody else to pay for your bad driving habits
and the expensive medical consequences. What if others don't want to pay for
it? Why should you have a right to expect them to do so?

I truly believe the folks in public housing ( oh
,, We don't have a large homeless problem in my community. ) will get
the same care. That is what reflects the values of my community.

Yeah, "take from everybody and give to me" values.

My father had some heart problems. He got help immediately.
He passed away but it was not from lack of expertise, availability or
hospital beds.

Most unfortunate. My father died from drinking himself to death, but he
never expected anyone else to pay for his mistakes and bad judgment.

In the end I believe we will be judged by how we treat the poorest in
society, not the wealthiest. I am pleased with Canada.

Fine by me, just don't try to export your socialism down here, we don't want
it.

Our military is not the most powerfull ( I would like to see it better
funded. ) But we have not fely a need to reach out and touch someone in
the way GW has.

And the reason you have a minimal military is because the US protects you,
just like it protected all of western Europe during the Cold War, which
freed you from having to spend more money on defense.

You're welcome...

Our medical system is fine.

Unless you're a teenager needing knee surgery...

All the best to you and yours.

Same to you. Enjoy your petard trip.


--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

BCITORGB wrote:


But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.


I could lose my health insurance at any time. If I were to change
jobs, any potential new employer would have to weigh the added burden
of putting a diabetic on their insurance policy. Thus, my job options
become much more limited. My present employer could decide to drop
insurance coverage (this happened to my wife). As I said before, most
insurance companies would deny me coverage. (Cherry-picking is the
vernacular for this common practice.) I would be **** out of luck, not
to mention the burden placed on a family where dad has serious medical
issues and can't get insurance. The threat of loss of insurance is a
constant and pervasive source of worry for me, despite the sizable
contributions I have paid into it over the years.





--
"This president has destroyed the country, the economy,
the relationship with the rest of the world.
He's a monster in the White House. He should resign."

- Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003.

A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:

BCITORGB wrote:


But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.


I could lose my health insurance at any time. If I were to change
jobs, any potential new employer would have to weigh the added burden
of putting a diabetic on their insurance policy. Thus, my job options
become much more limited. My present employer could decide to drop
insurance coverage (this happened to my wife). As I said before, most
insurance companies would deny me coverage. (Cherry-picking is the
vernacular for this common practice.) I would be **** out of luck, not
to mention the burden placed on a family where dad has serious medical
issues and can't get insurance. The threat of loss of insurance is a
constant and pervasive source of worry for me, despite the sizable
contributions I have paid into it over the years.

That was your first mistake. Instead of paying for insurance, which is
pretty much like throwing money down the sewer, you should have been taking
that money and investing it, or saving it under your mattress for that
matter, for a "rainy day" medical emergency, and paying for minor stuff out
of pocket. You'd be way ahead of the game if you had done so. Health
insurance is a mug's game. It's a massive fraud perpetrated on the people
and the only thing is does is make the insurance companies and their
investors rich.

Figure out some time how much you've paid in premiums over time versus how
much medical care you've actually *needed* (not the "convenience healthcare"
where you go in because you've got the flu just so the doctor can tell you
to go home and tough it out) and figure out exactly how much you *really*
paid for your essential health care. It's way too much, I guarantee it.

What's more, if you are an average working Joe, it's a complete waste of
money because if you get *really* ill, and require emergency life-saving
care in the US, you will get it. You can't be turned down by any
federally-funded hospital if it's a matter of life and death.

Of course, piles aren't a life or death matter, so you may have to stick
with Preparation H rather than getting surgery, but that's your problem, not
mine or the rest of society's.

And lest you think I'm being callous, I'm in *exactly* the same position you
are. I don't have, and can't get health insurance. But I don't whine about
it, I just figure out how to pay for it myself while not expecting others to
pay my bills for me. Personal responsibility is a very liberating thing.

Quit worrying and get to work figuring out how to cut expenses and start
putting money aside for emergencies. Try a catastrophic health care plan
that excludes anything related to diabetes and has a high deductible. Such
plans are available at very reasonable costs. Of course, it does mean you
don't get to run to the doctor every time you or your kids get the sniffles.
But that's a good thing. It forces you to work hard at staying healthy (like
teaching your kids to wash their hands and keep their fingers out of their
noses) and it encourages you to save money.

Or, suck it up and die if necessary. It happens to all of us eventually
anyway, and you'll be making room for somebody else with better genetics.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 3/20/05 8:22 PM:

Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had
admirable care. More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure.

But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

frtzw906

Heh. Well, given the billions of dollars that corporations in America might
stand to lose in a move towards more public health care, I'd say they have
more that a little motivation to paint a ridiculously dark picture of
Canadian health care. It ain't perfect here by far. But I wouldn't trade it
for US style health care, and that decision is easy.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
Frederick submits:
===================
Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our
monthly
mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and
that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay
before
insurance kicks in.
===================

I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out
across the
USA. [rhetorical question]

What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott
and rick
on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for
Scott to
cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular
healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN,
Michael, or
BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have
had
admirable care.
=======================
Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made a
statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in
Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure there are
millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted
presented data about people that died while waiting for
treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no difference
to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven to be
lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while waiting
for treatment?


More to the point, I know of not one person in my
circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary
procedure.
=================
Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died while
waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even waiting for
treatment at all?






But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that
KMAN,
Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied
insurance
coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no
idea
about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance
companies
jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage.

Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most
expensive
monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and
deductibles". I
don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in
Canada, and
the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or
greater
than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it).
However, I do
know that I'll always have that coverage.

And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask
why the
USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita,
but is
unable to match Canada and most western European nations on
issues such
as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a
healthcare
scandal worth writing newspaper articles about.

frtzw906