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#1
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Canada's health care crisis
Interesting story today in the Boulder Daily Camera about the Canadian
health care crisis. Page 4B. It's by Beth Duff-Brown of the Associated Press. "A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: 'If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies.'" The article says the patient wasn't dead, but this letter provides cold comfort to those who obviously do die before they get medical care in Canada, evidently in sufficient numbers to persuade health care workers to apologize in advance. "The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, partly to fund the health care system. Rates vary from province to province, but Ontario, the most populous, spends roughly 40 percent of every tax dollar on health care, according to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation." Wow! Forty-eight percent of income for health care that you can't get when you need it. What a bargain! "George Zeliotis told the court he suffered pain and became addicted to painkillers during a yearlong wait for hip replacement surgery, and hsould have been allowed to pay for faster service. His physician, Dr. Jacques Chaoulli, said his patient's constitutional rights were violated because Quebec couldn't provide the care he needed, but didn't offer him the option of getting it privately." And then there's this: "But tell that to the hospital administrators constantly having to cut staff for lack of funds, or to the mother whose teenager was advised she would have to wait up to three years for surgery to repair a torn knee ligament." So much for the "I can get private health care whenever I want in Canada" argument... "[A]ccording to experts on both sides of the debate, Canada and North Korea are the only countries with laws banning the purchase of insurance for hospitalization or surgery." ....and you can't buy supplemental insurance to protect yourself even if you want to. Talk about your socialistic, egalitarian "share the pain" bedfellows...Canada and North Korea don't care a fig if you, the individual, suffers, they only care that everyone suffers together in comradely communistic solidarity, while paying 48% of income for the privilege. Bleah. It also seems that the average wait time between referral and treatment has risen from 9.3 days to 17.9 days since 1993. What's more, the percentage of Canadians who had same-day access to a doctor when sick or needing medical attention is the lowest (27%) of all when compared to New Zealand (60%), Australia (54%), Britain (41%), and the USA (33%). And, Canada has the lowest ratio of practicing physicians per 1000 persons (2.1) of all when compared to Italy (4.4), Belgium (3.9), France (3.3), Australia (2.5), and the USA (2.4). (Sources cited in the article: Fraser Institute; Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development; The Commonwealth Fund: Bank of Canada.) -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
#2
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Scott cites:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay? But more to the point, it would be useful if you just put out the comparative data, without an editorial, so that people could reac decisions based on data alone. Here's my source: Social and Cultural Planning Office, The Hague, September 2004 NOTE: The SCP used primarily OECD and World Bank data. Let's check out the data, and then reach a conclusion based on data, shall we? In each category, Canada is mentioned first, then the USA (as in, Canada vs USA). Total current expenditure on health ca percentage of GDP, 2000: 8.5% vs 13% Total current health expenditure per capita, 2000: 2400=80 vs 4100=80 Out-patient expenditure as percentage of gdp: 2.7% vs 5.9% In-patient expenditure as percentage of GDP: 2.8% vs 3.9% Inpatient ca beds per 1000 inhabitants, 2000: 3.9 vs 9.8 Total health employment per 1000 inhabitants, 2001 (FTE): 37 vs 38 Physicians: number per 1000 inhabitants, 2001: 2.1 vs 2.8 Nurses: number per 1000 inhabitants, 2001: 9.8 vs 8.1 Inpatient ca admissions per 1000 inhabitants, 2000: 100 vs 125 Acute ca number of patient days per capita, 2000: 0.85 vs 0.68 Non-acute inpatient ca number of patient days per capita, 2000: 0.15 vs 2.25 Outpatient consultations of physicians: number per capita, 2001: 6.1 vs 6=2E0 General practitioners per 1000 inhabitants: 1.0 vs 0.8 Acute ca occupancy rate: 87% vs 68% Number of consultations per practising physician, 2000: 3050 vs 2020 Life expectancy at birth, 2001: 80 vs 78 Healthy life expectancy: 70 vs 67.5 Infant mortality in deaths per 1000 live births, 2001: 5 vs 6.5 Health status index, 2001: 5.6 vs 4.7 (higher is better) Cost-effectiveness of health care, 2001: Compare health status index with expenditure per person (Canada wins) Rankings of countries by type of health index - *Health status index 2001: 8th vs 19th *SCP composite index 2001: 13th vs 18th *WHO composite - index 1997: 4th vs 12th On some fairly critical factors such as life expectancy, healthy life expectancy, infant mortality, and a variety of health indices, Canada out-performs the USA. At substatially less expenditure. So, Scott, instead of dealing in editorials from newpapers, why not deal in real data. What do you make of this data? frtzw906 |
#3
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BCITORGB wrote:
Scott cites: ============= The average Canadian family pays about 48 percent of its income in taxes each year, ============= And, Scott, exactly how much tax does the average American pay? My son and I are covered by a group insurance plan provided by my employer, of which my employer pays 1/3. My wife is covered by her employee insurance plan, which suddenly increased by 25%. She shopped around for personal coverage, and inquired about coverage for the entire family. Every insurance company she asked said they wouldn't cover me (diabetes). She chose a BIG health insurance company for herself, but they doubled her premiums when they found out she was taking lipitor (statin for cholesterol). Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before insurance kicks in. Oh, we live in the good-ol U.S. of A. -- "This president has destroyed the country, the economy, the relationship with the rest of the world. He's a monster in the White House. He should resign." - Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003. |
#4
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Frederick submits:
=================== Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before insurance kicks in. =================== I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the USA. [rhetorical question] What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had admirable care. More to the point, I know of not one person in my circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure. But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN, Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage. Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do know that I'll always have that coverage. And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare scandal worth writing newspaper articles about. frtzw906 |
#5
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This is not kayak related but here goes.
Last year I had a car crash. Totalled the car but the 3 kayaks on the roof were unhurt. Thank God . there was a Capella An NDK Exploere and a Sealution. My neck faired not so well and I had a little concussion. I drove to the hospital was looked at immediately and had a secondary assesment. Since then I have had xrays and a couple of visits to my GP. No cost to me.... ( taxes obviously ) The physio is an insurance thing but who cares, it needs done and If I had the time it would be free. ( In Hospital take a ticket and wait. ) There was never an issue in whether or not I could pay. I guess I am a commie. I truly believe the folks in public housing ( oh ,, We don't have a large homeless problem in my community. ) will get the same care. That is what reflects the values of my community. My father had some heart problems. He got help immediately. He passed away but it was not from lack of expertise, availability or hospital beds. In the end I believe we will be judged by how we treat the poorest in society, not the wealthiest. I am pleased with Canada. Our military is not the most powerfull ( I would like to see it better funded. ) But we have not fely a need to reach out and touch someone in the way GW has. Our medical system is fine. All the best to you and yours. Alex McGruer |
#6
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#7
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BCITORGB wrote:
But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN, Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage. Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do know that I'll always have that coverage. I could lose my health insurance at any time. If I were to change jobs, any potential new employer would have to weigh the added burden of putting a diabetic on their insurance policy. Thus, my job options become much more limited. My present employer could decide to drop insurance coverage (this happened to my wife). As I said before, most insurance companies would deny me coverage. (Cherry-picking is the vernacular for this common practice.) I would be **** out of luck, not to mention the burden placed on a family where dad has serious medical issues and can't get insurance. The threat of loss of insurance is a constant and pervasive source of worry for me, despite the sizable contributions I have paid into it over the years. -- "This president has destroyed the country, the economy, the relationship with the rest of the world. He's a monster in the White House. He should resign." - Hunter S. Thompson, speaking to an antiwar audience in 2003. |
#8
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A Usenet persona calling itself Frederick Burroughs wrote:
BCITORGB wrote: But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN, Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage. Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do know that I'll always have that coverage. I could lose my health insurance at any time. If I were to change jobs, any potential new employer would have to weigh the added burden of putting a diabetic on their insurance policy. Thus, my job options become much more limited. My present employer could decide to drop insurance coverage (this happened to my wife). As I said before, most insurance companies would deny me coverage. (Cherry-picking is the vernacular for this common practice.) I would be **** out of luck, not to mention the burden placed on a family where dad has serious medical issues and can't get insurance. The threat of loss of insurance is a constant and pervasive source of worry for me, despite the sizable contributions I have paid into it over the years. That was your first mistake. Instead of paying for insurance, which is pretty much like throwing money down the sewer, you should have been taking that money and investing it, or saving it under your mattress for that matter, for a "rainy day" medical emergency, and paying for minor stuff out of pocket. You'd be way ahead of the game if you had done so. Health insurance is a mug's game. It's a massive fraud perpetrated on the people and the only thing is does is make the insurance companies and their investors rich. Figure out some time how much you've paid in premiums over time versus how much medical care you've actually *needed* (not the "convenience healthcare" where you go in because you've got the flu just so the doctor can tell you to go home and tough it out) and figure out exactly how much you *really* paid for your essential health care. It's way too much, I guarantee it. What's more, if you are an average working Joe, it's a complete waste of money because if you get *really* ill, and require emergency life-saving care in the US, you will get it. You can't be turned down by any federally-funded hospital if it's a matter of life and death. Of course, piles aren't a life or death matter, so you may have to stick with Preparation H rather than getting surgery, but that's your problem, not mine or the rest of society's. And lest you think I'm being callous, I'm in *exactly* the same position you are. I don't have, and can't get health insurance. But I don't whine about it, I just figure out how to pay for it myself while not expecting others to pay my bills for me. Personal responsibility is a very liberating thing. Quit worrying and get to work figuring out how to cut expenses and start putting money aside for emergencies. Try a catastrophic health care plan that excludes anything related to diabetes and has a high deductible. Such plans are available at very reasonable costs. Of course, it does mean you don't get to run to the doctor every time you or your kids get the sniffles. But that's a good thing. It forces you to work hard at staying healthy (like teaching your kids to wash their hands and keep their fingers out of their noses) and it encourages you to save money. Or, suck it up and die if necessary. It happens to all of us eventually anyway, and you'll be making room for somebody else with better genetics. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
#10
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"BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... Frederick submits: =================== Our monthly health insurance payments are now more than our monthly mortgage payment. For us, health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles we must pay before insurance kicks in. =================== I wonder if yours is a special case or if this is played out across the USA. [rhetorical question] What I find curious, and we've been down this road with Scott and rick on a previous thread, is why it is seemingly appropriate for Scott to cite a newspaper article, reporting on one particular healthcare-related anecdote, but inappropriate for KMAN, Michael, or BCITORGB to cite anecdotes about friends and relatives who have had admirable care. ======================= Who said it wasn't? The problem with kman was that he made a statement that was proven to be a lie. That some people in Canada recieve proper care was not the issue. I'm sure there are millions that recieve adequate care. The sites I posted presented data about people that died while waiting for treatment. Be it one or tens of thousands makes no difference to the claim kman made that no one is dying. He was proven to be lying. Are you now saying that no one ever dies while waiting for treatment? More to the point, I know of not one person in my circle of acquaintances who as had to wait for a necessary procedure. ================= Again, that doesn't refute the data that people HAVE died while waiting, and are you now claiming that no one is even waiting for treatment at all? But what I find interesting about Frederick's story is that KMAN, Michael, and BCITORGB don't know what it is like being denied insurance coverage because of diabetes or cholesterol issues. We have no idea about the trauma or stress one might feel as the insurance companies jack up the premiums or outright deny coverage. Frederick states that "health insurance is our single most expensive monthly expense, and that doesn't count the co-pays and deductibles". I don't have the figures at hand; perhaps the taxes I pay in Canada, and the portion thereof that goes to healthcare, are equal to or greater than Frederick's monthly premiums (somehow I doubt it). However, I do know that I'll always have that coverage. And, as we ponder Frederick's premiums, we might wish to ask why the USA spends more (significantly more) on healthcare per capita, but is unable to match Canada and most western European nations on issues such as infant mortality and life expectancy. Now there's a healthcare scandal worth writing newspaper articles about. frtzw906 |
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