On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:09:08 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

Sure, it's simple to delete posts that you're not going to read buy why
should we?

You don't need to bother deleting them, just have the willpower not
to read them.

This is a newsgroup about paddling. There are many other
newsgroups in which political discussion, and even flaming is on topic.
Those that want to read that kind of article can go to those groups.

That all sounds just dandy, but it doesn't work in reality. I tried
going from the boating news group to the political group to talk
politics, and a boating topic broke out. I left my football group and
went the flame group to do some flaming and a football discussion
broke out. Even the dang political and flaming groups stray off
topic. Personally, I think it's all Bush's fault.

That's
the whole point of creating topically based groups.

Stop blaming others for your own lack of willpower. It fairly easy to
skip posts that aren't relevant.

I've been reading this
group for about 7 years and this is the worse case of off-topic article
posting I've ever seen. I've been participating on usenet for 20 years and
the number of off-topic article to on topic articles is just about the
highest ratio I've seen as well.

Get used to it because it's not going to go away. Society changes,
even use net society.

Those that continue to post the off topic
articles are just flat out rude.

Off topic is now the norm. You may consider it rude, but it is now
the norm.

bb

If the contributor to this newsgroup stay on topic then how the hell are
we going to find out what they are like? I would hate to invite some of
the members of this group on an extreme descent because though they may
be the best kayak paddler out there I just could not get along with them
because of their known attitude to the local population! Now a less than
extreme descent where there are no external stress factors to deal with
then I can tolerate having a redneck rafter along to move the beer! (AND
before you flame me NOT all rafters are Rednecks)

In message , bb
writes
On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:09:08 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

Sure, it's simple to delete posts that you're not going to read buy why
should we?

You don't need to bother deleting them, just have the willpower not
to read them.

This is a newsgroup about paddling. There are many other
newsgroups in which political discussion, and even flaming is on topic.
Those that want to read that kind of article can go to those groups.

That all sounds just dandy, but it doesn't work in reality. I tried
going from the boating news group to the political group to talk
politics, and a boating topic broke out. I left my football group and
went the flame group to do some flaming and a football discussion
broke out. Even the dang political and flaming groups stray off
topic. Personally, I think it's all Bush's fault.

That's
the whole point of creating topically based groups.

Stop blaming others for your own lack of willpower. It fairly easy to
skip posts that aren't relevant.

I've been reading this
group for about 7 years and this is the worse case of off-topic article
posting I've ever seen. I've been participating on usenet for 20 years and
the number of off-topic article to on topic articles is just about the
highest ratio I've seen as well.

Get used to it because it's not going to go away. Society changes,
even use net society.

Those that continue to post the off topic
articles are just flat out rude.

Off topic is now the norm. You may consider it rude, but it is now
the norm.

bb

--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

Dave Manby wrote:
If the contributor to this newsgroup stay on topic then how the hell
are
we going to find out what they are like? I would hate to invite some
of
the members of this group on an extreme descent because though they
may
be the best kayak paddler out there I just could not get along with
them
because of their known attitude to the local population! Now a less
than
extreme descent where there are no external stress factors to deal
with
then I can tolerate having a redneck rafter along to move the beer!
(AND
before you flame me NOT all rafters are Rednecks)


Thanks for that last one Dave! I am a rafter, and an IK'er on the
little stuff, but definately not a Redneck. I absolutely agree on the
points about compatibility.

I would rate "group dynamics" as probably one of the most important
factors. It is hard enough to do the right thing under difficult
conditions without adding more ingredients into the fire. The reality
TV shows are a good example of that.

I am a believer that societies advance through co-operation rather than
individual effort. And while I value my independence, the interests of
the group typically supercedes my own concerns. This is probably at
the heart of the great divide in the US. From my point of view, that
separation is based one of two world views:

1) What is good for me.
2) What is best for the common good.

Taxes, salvation, recreation, pre-emtpive war - you name it.

Railtramp

Blakley LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
RBP Clique member #86.

The best adventure is yet to come ...

bb wrote in
:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:09:08 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

Sure, it's simple to delete posts that you're not going to read buy why
should we?

You don't need to bother deleting them, just have the willpower not
to read them.

When did I claim that I've been reading them? For about a week on a typical
day I would open up my newsreader, select r.b.p. (one of about a dozen
groups that I subscribe to) and will see that 50-100 new messages have been
posted. From the subject lines I can see a handful of what appear to be
paddling related articles so I pick them out and read them. I also see a
bunch of threads that are clearly off topic, some with subject lines that
are essentially calling one of the participants names. As is the case with
most newsreaders, if I don't want to see the same articles the next time I
read the group I have to mark the articles as read (even if I don't read
them). So even though I'm not actually reading every article posted to the
group I have to take action to indicate that I don't want to see them.
Furthermore, when 80-90% of the articles posted are off topic, it become
more difficult to find articles that *are* paddling related.

This is a newsgroup about paddling. There are many other
newsgroups in which political discussion, and even flaming is on topic.
Those that want to read that kind of article can go to those groups.

That all sounds just dandy, but it doesn't work in reality. I tried
going from the boating news group to the political group to talk
politics, and a boating topic broke out. I left my football group and
went the flame group to do some flaming and a football discussion
broke out. Even the dang political and flaming groups stray off
topic. Personally, I think it's all Bush's fault.

I don't expect that every newsgroup is going to remain 100% on topic, but
when 80-90% of the group consist of off topic posts, to the point where some
of the participants in those threads are essentially just calling each other
names and creating new thread solely for that purpose it's getting a bit out
of hand.


That's
the whole point of creating topically based groups.

Stop blaming others for your own lack of willpower. It fairly easy to
skip posts that aren't relevant.

Again, I'm not reading the off topic posts. I still have to read the
subject line for the thread to know if they're off topic and then mark them
as read. It's much easier to skip posts that are not relevant if they're
posted in a group that I haven't subscribed to.

I've been reading this
group for about 7 years and this is the worse case of off-topic article
posting I've ever seen. I've been participating on usenet for 20 years
and the number of off-topic article to on topic articles is just about
the highest ratio I've seen as well.

Get used to it because it's not going to go away. Society changes,
even use net society.

Those that continue to post the off topic articles are just flat out
rude.

Off topic is now the norm. You may consider it rude, but it is now
the norm.

At least in this newsgroup, off topic is not the norm, which is one of the
reasons that I have continued to read it for 7 years.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
bb wrote in
:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:09:08 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

Sure, it's simple to delete posts that you're not going to read buy why
should we?

You don't need to bother deleting them, just have the willpower not
to read them.

When did I claim that I've been reading them? For about a week on a
typical
day I would open up my newsreader, select r.b.p. (one of about a dozen
groups that I subscribe to) and will see that 50-100 new messages have
been
posted. From the subject lines I can see a handful of what appear to be
paddling related articles so I pick them out and read them. I also see a
bunch of threads that are clearly off topic, some with subject lines that
are essentially calling one of the participants names. As is the case
with
most newsreaders, if I don't want to see the same articles the next time I
read the group I have to mark the articles as read (even if I don't read
them). So even though I'm not actually reading every article posted to
the
group I have to take action to indicate that I don't want to see them.
Furthermore, when 80-90% of the articles posted are off topic, it become
more difficult to find articles that *are* paddling related.

This is a newsgroup about paddling. There are many other
newsgroups in which political discussion, and even flaming is on topic.
Those that want to read that kind of article can go to those groups.

That all sounds just dandy, but it doesn't work in reality. I tried
going from the boating news group to the political group to talk
politics, and a boating topic broke out. I left my football group and
went the flame group to do some flaming and a football discussion
broke out. Even the dang political and flaming groups stray off
topic. Personally, I think it's all Bush's fault.

I don't expect that every newsgroup is going to remain 100% on topic, but
when 80-90% of the group consist of off topic posts, to the point where
some
of the participants in those threads are essentially just calling each
other
names and creating new thread solely for that purpose it's getting a bit
out
of hand.


That's
the whole point of creating topically based groups.

Stop blaming others for your own lack of willpower. It fairly easy to
skip posts that aren't relevant.

Again, I'm not reading the off topic posts. I still have to read the
subject line for the thread to know if they're off topic and then mark
them
as read. It's much easier to skip posts that are not relevant if they're
posted in a group that I haven't subscribed to.

I've been reading this
group for about 7 years and this is the worse case of off-topic article
posting I've ever seen. I've been participating on usenet for 20 years
and the number of off-topic article to on topic articles is just about
the highest ratio I've seen as well.

Get used to it because it's not going to go away. Society changes,
even use net society.

Those that continue to post the off topic articles are just flat out
rude.

Off topic is now the norm. You may consider it rude, but it is now
the norm.

At least in this newsgroup, off topic is not the norm, which is one of the
reasons that I have continued to read it for 7 years.


Hi John: this is a post i wrote but did not send (RWBNS) in response to an
earlier one in this thread from you, but it seems to fit in here, in support
of what you are saying.


"John Fereira" wrote in message
Those that continue to post the off
topic
articles are just flat out rude.


Rudeness is hard to define, and according to some, thats a useless exercise.
Although there are not FORMAL usenet rules, the thing I always liked about
rbp in the past, the most recent calm period nonwithstanding, is the
informal set of rules that had evolved and the cameraderie that evolved. And
in that vein, I would define 'rude' as being contrary to that spirit.

RBP is not a real-world space, and most folks here have not met IRL, but
nontheless the longtimers had some intense shared experiences. The death of
Scott, the invasion of Burntballs, the invasion of Sponsonboy.... and
throughout it all we still posted friendly posts about river running,
adventuring and a lot of folks managed to get together in the real world at
times and share a paddle and/or a beer. We maintained our identity, folks
had differing roles here and contributed accordingly, and visitors who
dropped in either found it homey and welcoming and stayed, or found it too
small-towny, too inbred, and left.

In a lot of ways, rbp has been like a little-known special river, one that
the locals know about, took care of, and although there is no organized
effort to keep it secret, we all appreciated that it hadn't been discovered
by the world at large. Sure, a lot of rbp-ers went over to Boatertalk and
some other forums, but it wasn't the same, I hear. I seriously doubt if the
denizens of those groups ever made 'BoaterTalk' t-shirts or stickers
like we did here. There was something up close and family about this place,
and the inside joke of the 'clique' was just one way of recognizing those
who were part of the family and got the joke. A family, I might add, that
was completely open to anyone who wanted to join, as long as they wanted to
JOIN and not CONQUER, recognized the aura of the place and contributed to
it rather than tried to redefine it.

However, recently it seems like we've been discovered by some folks who
would rather conquer, to redefine according to their own wants, and the
effect is not unlike watching a big commercial river running outfit set up
shop on that favorite little-known river. They have their lawyers, running
legal defense and offense, cutting off protestations and insisting on equal
access. They have their belligerant outfitters, used to being able to get
their own way and well-able to bulldoze the put-in beach and pour a cement
slab, changing the aura of the place forever to their own liking. And they
have their dozens of innocent clients, helping to destroy that same private
little river by their tacit participation with the outfitter, with no idea
of what had been before. They have
their experts at all aspects except the most important one; the ability to
sit on the sidelines, watch the interactions, and get a feel for the aura
before joining in to contribute. Oh, they're not doing anything wrong in the
legal sense, but it sure feels wrong watching it all go away.

Somehow, I don't think rbp will really recover from this last invasion.
There are
some players out there with a whole new set of rules...rules that are legal
and legitimate, just rude and insensitive to what rbp was when it was a
nicer place, and they aren't going to go away, and they don't care. By the
time the dust settles, there will be dozens of new
posters with legitimate definitions as 'locals', and the changes will be
here to stay. Thats how it goes, and we all know that it doesn't always get
better.

I don't think I'll be posting too many 'back in the day' trip reports, as
the handful of people that I had a personal connection to seem to be lost in
the mob these days. Hopefully it will change, but I don't see it coming.
Its just become too rude.

--riverman

John Fereira wrote:
bb wrote in
:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 23:09:08 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

Sure, it's simple to delete posts that you're not going to read buy
why
should we?

You don't need to bother deleting them, just have the willpower
not
to read them.

When did I claim that I've been reading them? For about a week on a
typical
day I would open up my newsreader, select r.b.p. (one of about a
dozen
groups that I subscribe to) and will see that 50-100 new messages
have been
posted. From the subject lines I can see a handful of what appear to
be
paddling related articles so I pick them out and read them. I also
see a
bunch of threads that are clearly off topic, some with subject lines
that
are essentially calling one of the participants names. As is the
case with
most newsreaders, if I don't want to see the same articles the next
time I
read the group I have to mark the articles as read (even if I don't
read
them). So even though I'm not actually reading every article posted
to the
group I have to take action to indicate that I don't want to see
them.
Furthermore, when 80-90% of the articles posted are off topic, it
become
more difficult to find articles that *are* paddling related.

This is a newsgroup about paddling. There are many other
newsgroups in which political discussion, and even flaming is on
topic.
Those that want to read that kind of article can go to those
groups.

That all sounds just dandy, but it doesn't work in reality. I
tried
going from the boating news group to the political group to talk
politics, and a boating topic broke out. I left my football group
and
went the flame group to do some flaming and a football discussion
broke out. Even the dang political and flaming groups stray off
topic. Personally, I think it's all Bush's fault.

I don't expect that every newsgroup is going to remain 100% on topic,
but
when 80-90% of the group consist of off topic posts, to the point
where some
of the participants in those threads are essentially just calling
each other
names and creating new thread solely for that purpose it's getting a
bit out
of hand.


That's
the whole point of creating topically based groups.

Stop blaming others for your own lack of willpower. It fairly easy
to
skip posts that aren't relevant.

Again, I'm not reading the off topic posts. I still have to read the

subject line for the thread to know if they're off topic and then
mark them
as read. It's much easier to skip posts that are not relevant if
they're
posted in a group that I haven't subscribed to.

I've been reading this
group for about 7 years and this is the worse case of off-topic
article
posting I've ever seen. I've been participating on usenet for 20
years
and the number of off-topic article to on topic articles is just
about
the highest ratio I've seen as well.

Get used to it because it's not going to go away. Society changes,
even use net society.

Those that continue to post the off topic articles are just flat
out
rude.

Off topic is now the norm. You may consider it rude, but it is now
the norm.

At least in this newsgroup, off topic is not the norm, which is one
of the
reasons that I have continued to read it for 7 years.

I agree with you whole heartedly, calling people names is totally rude,
and they are wasting our time if we have to sort through all the crap,
to find a gold nugget that is worth holding on to. Flaming and
insulting is also rude, and I realize that there were certain ones on
another thread, that is all they seem to be interested in doing. Even
for those of us having a nice OT discussion it has been very
frustrating. I have even spent a lot of time attempting to settle their
meaningless dispute, which recently has settled down some. Sadly, I
suspect that they both have thoughts that would be profitable to share
in a civil fashion. It reminds me of some kids standing 5 feet apart,
yelling invectives at each other. For us watching, it is amusing in a
way at first, for awhile, but then it becomes annoying and rude.

It is also rude, and certainly poor usenet practice, to diagnose
certain people, in such a way as to put them down, not for what they
have to say, by addressing what they say, but by a personal assault on
their character or personality. This being a discussion group, address
the issue being discussed. If you don't like the discussion, or don't
agree with the way the discussion is going, you are free to ignore, but
noone is making you listen.

riverman, in his current post to you says some things have changed, and
I am sure he is right. That is the nature of life, and we all love to
talk about the good old days. I am approaching 60, and I have seen a
few gallons of water go under the bridge, and it is definitely
different than it was so long ago. My favorite camping spot was overrun
by 4x4 with little plastic boats on top, and that was 20 years ago,
back in the good old days. I hate to venture the thought of how it
would be today. I use to set at night around the campfire, and listen
to coyote sing there song. Last time I was at the old campsite, all I
could hear were some of those rowdy paddlers I think trying to sing,
while at the same time yelling and screaming, and throwing beer cans
and bottles at each other. Now that was really rude and annoying. The
next day they were all gone on to the next river to conquer, I suppose,
and I went over and picked up several bags full of cans and beer
bottles. It was very sad!

Use to be you could pitch your tent where ever, but now with the influx
of overnighter, who don't seem to think there are any civil rules that
apply to them, and crap where ever, you don't want to plan on pitching
your tent just where ever. And when you get your tent pitched, you sure
want to watch where you step. None of those solo moonlit walks among
the purple sage to smell the night air. If you are not careful, when
you get back to camp, you will smell like a crapper.

Now the only advantage of the RV crowd with their generators and
portable TVs is that when they bulldosed and laid a slab of concrete so
they could just "drive on, and be level", is that most of them are self
contained. Also representing maybe a little higher life form than those
rowdy river folk, they don't seem to throw so many beer cans and
bottles around either.

Alas though, I can not hear the coyote singing now over their
generator.

Now despite his protest in the accompaning post, riverman seems willing
to start OT subjects, call folks name, diagnose folks personality, and
make generally inflamatory comments about what they have to say. And He
invites his friends to make similar comments where upon he comliments
them for being cute in the use of the English language, or even better
in the "secret code and mysterious Laguage" of a couple little kids in
their treehouse. And I realize that being a fisherman at heart myself,
and he being a published fisherman, trolling is almost a natural
reflex, which I have seen him practice on a few ocassions.

Now I could have posted this directly to his post, and the exercise of
the usenet code would have been happier, however, I have been
instructed recently that it is debatable that posting on the usenet is
never trully directed. So what I say is not directed personally to the
riverman, but to all in general.

If I had bought that old campsite, then it would have been mine to run
the way I wanted it to be. However, being a poor old codger I never had
the foresight to save the money to buy it, or to even think that I
needed to buy it. I would suggest that if you want a good old moderated
website where everything is always the way it always was, and no bad
things happen, and no one talks about taboo subjects, that you set up
your own private little website where all you good old boys can meet
and talk about the good old days. I could even suggest that riverman be
the moderator, Oci-One knows computers and could do the design, and
Wilko already has a lot of very good articles to be contributed, along
with riverman. I am sure that there are many others that would be more
than willing to join, and you could write all the love letters to each
other, and arrange clandestine meetings down on the river to paddle or
fish. Which would be fine with me, and maybe others. You could even
make some t-shirts with your website address on, so all the wantabees
could envy you your t-shirt, and your private membership, which you of
course would not want to open to just anyone, since that would
eventually lead to the ruin of how it used to be!

Yeah things have changed, get use to it, some of you may have been in
that crowd of rowdys messing up my old campsite back in the good old
days. The biggest change may be I have my own 4x4, plastic boat, and RV
with self contained crapper. So, can anyone point me to the boatramp?
TnT

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 12:41:20 GMT, John Fereira
wrote:

At least in this newsgroup, off topic is not the norm, which is one of the
reasons that I have continued to read it for 7 years.

Just jerkin' yer chain a little dude. Although I seem to have a
higher tolerance than you for off topic posting, a lot, most, of what
you say I agree with.

bb

Bob P wrote:

Gentlemen,

If you wish to debate endlessly, could you find a more appropriate
newsgroup? If your conversation consisted of 20 posts, it would be
within reason for an OT series, but these have gone on for more than
1000. Find yourselves a better home. Please.

I've started using the 'Auto-Kill Thread' option on my news reader a lot
recently. All this does is stop the particular (off-topic) thread ever
appearing again in my news reader window, works a treat! Stops people
having to post complaints about long threads as well - hopefully... ;-)

....and less draconian than setting up an intricate Kill File - though I
do use one of those as well.

It's a simple key-combination on my particular reader / computer.

Keith wrote:
Bob P wrote:

Gentlemen,

If you wish to debate endlessly, could you find a more appropriate
newsgroup? If your conversation consisted of 20 posts, it would be

within reason for an OT series, but these have gone on for more
than
1000. Find yourselves a better home. Please.

I've started using the 'Auto-Kill Thread' option on my news reader a
lot
recently. All this does is stop the particular (off-topic) thread
ever
appearing again in my news reader window, works a treat! Stops people
having to post complaints about long threads as well - hopefully...
;-)

...and less draconian than setting up an intricate Kill File - though
I
do use one of those as well.

It's a simple key-combination on my particular reader / computer.

That is another reason why it is good for the OT stuff to stay on a
couple threads, and not matastisize to all! IMO TnT