Brian Nystrom wrote:
Wilko wrote:

Have you ever actually worn a dry suit, Wilko? From your comments, it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use one 7-8 months of the year and my
experience varies dramatically from yours.

Have you ever actually paddled whitewater, Brian? From your comments it
certainly doesn't seem so. I use a wetsuit with a seperate drytop all
year around, both when it's freezing in the winter and when it's in the
middle of the summer.

Your comments may have some merit when talking about paddling at sea,
but I was talking about paddling whitewater.

I personally don't like paddling drysuits. First of all, I think that
they just cost too much, especially for a beginning paddler. It's
still necessary to wear a thick enough layer of clothes underneath to
keep out the cold and to have some padding in the case of a close
encounter with hard objects.

It's called "insulation" and you need it regardless. I don't see your
point.

Then maybe you should look again: Neoprene insulates rather well, unlike
the fabric of a dry suit *and* neoprene absorbs some of the impact when
you happen to bump into some rocks, unlike the fabric of a dry suit. You
*can* add layers between the wetsuit and the drytop, but the wetsuit
insulates and protects already without that.

It's also not all that easy to get into a new or newly gasketed
drysuit, having witnessed all too many wrestling drysuit owners trying
very hard to get into their prized garments...

If you trim the seals to fit properly and apply a bit of talc to the
inside, the slip on and off easily.

Yeah right!

I've owned a number of drytops, and although they do tend to become
easier to get into over time, some do take quite a bit of effort to get
in and out of. Since I have a couple of friends who've invested in
drysuits, I've had the pleasure of seeing them wrestle even more, and I
tend to help them get in and out of their garments like I help some of
my drytop wearing friends to get in and out of those.

And then I haven't started about the strength and agility needed to
close that zipper! :-)

Properly lubed zippers aren't a problem.

Of course, you don't have sand or other particles that seem to be
magnetically attracted to those zippers. Even in wetsuits I've seen
zippers get permanently stuck due to that kind of stuff, not to mention
the times that drysuit wearers have asked me to help them with their
zipper, in part because of the poor location of those zippers (on the
back).

My main problem with them are the gaskets though. I don't like a latex
gasket around my neck, as I really abhor a neck rash.

While some people do have problems with latex reactions, this is not a
given. In fact, it's not very common. For example, of the 50 or so
friends I can think of who own dry suits, only one has discovered that
he has a latex alergy.

I am not talking about latex allergy, I'm talking about the chafing and
rubbing of the gasket when you turn your head. Having two layers of
neoprene (as my current semi-drytop has) seems to solve that problem, by
having one (long) layer move with my neck's movement, and the other
layer staying in place on the outside.

These neck gaskets are the first to become so wide that water can
freely flow in and out, because your (big) head has to go through
them, stretching the darn thing, whereas it should shrink to the size
of your neck after that every time.

This is just plain wrong!

Sure Brian...

Latex has a very good memory, which is why stretching seals to make them
fit better is largely a waste of time. Latex seals can readily stretch
over the largest head, then snap back to be very tight, if they're not
trimmed to fit properly.

I have two drytops right now that call you a liar, as well as several
more that I have owned in the past. The wrist gaskets on each of those
have stretched enough to become less tight over time. The neck gasket on
the dry top of several of my friends (and my girlfriend's old drytop)
also have stretched enough as to not close the neck off completely any more.

Besides, seeing how many of the drysuits have no protective

neoprene cover, getting a deep scratch from a sharp rock, branches or
thorns makes the entire term "dry" suit a lie.

This is very misleading. While it's true that dry suits are not ideally
suited to negotiating thorny shores or frequent abrasion against rocks,
they're far more durable that you suggest.

Nonsense again. I'm talking about the vulnerability of latex gaskets
when they are without a neoprene cover. I don't say anything about the
vulnerability of the material that makes up the rest of the suit (or dry
top for that matter).

For sea kayaking, they're extremely durable.

Who is talking about sea kayaking? How many bramble bushes or other
shrubbery with thorns grow out on sea, Brian?

It takes about an hour to do a pair of wrists or ankles (or latex
socks)
and perhaps an hour and a half to do a neck seal. It's not difficult,
either. Wrist and ankle seals are ~$25/pair and a neck seal is ~$30-$35.
Properly treated, seals will last at least four seasons of frequent use.

Four seasons without stretching at all, eh?

BTW, I don't know what you earn per hour, but I do earn a bit more than
the material cost of those gaskets per hour, which means that sitting
there for 2,5 hours is quite a bit of time and money. Also, it also
takes considerably more time than just your run of the mill gasket
replacement if the gasket has torn up along the stitched line where the
latex meets the breathable material.

Even worse, if you rip a gasket, the suit can fill up with water and
cause you to disappear under water, as RBP'er Larry Cable witnessed
when he had to "swim" with a swamped dry suit. The air trapped inside
your leg pants after you rip a neck gasket and the suit floods can
also cause you to float upside down, making it very hard to breathe.

Incidents like that are exceedingly rare. Seals are not fragile unless
they're old and are in need of replacement. They don't just
spontaneously tear for no reason. Every seal failure I've seen has
occurred either when the paddler was putting the suit on or taking it
off. I have never seen a seal fail on the water. Barring some bizarre
circumstances, it simply doesn't happen.

I've torn three wrist gaskets on the river. On after scratching it with
a thorn, one after hitting something under water and one along the
stitched line, where the stitch has started to create a little tear
along several of the holes. I noticed none of them untill the water
started to seep in. I've only seen two torn neck gaskets, but as larry's
story proves, that can have dire consequences on the river. Better have
an extra layer of neoprene over that gasket for exactly that reason.

Still, despite those horror stories many drysuit owners swear by their
virtues, and I have to agree that seeing them get out of their suit
after a day of paddling almost dry does have its merits.

All it takes is one experience of stripping off a damp wetsuit in a 30
degree F breeze to convince you that there has to be a better way. Dry
suits are that better way. Not only are they more comfortable to wear,
but at the end of the day, you slip out of it, throw on a jacket and
you're good to go.

I'm not convinced that spending that much money for a dry suit is indeed
such a good thing, and I've definately done my part of stripping off my
wetsuit at below freezing temperatures.

Gore-Text doesn't require any special treatment beyond rinsing it off
after use in salt water and letting it dry. It's advisable to re-apply a
durable water repellent (DWR) periodically, but I know very few people
who actually do that, myself included. Gore-Tex is considerably more
durable than coated fabrics and the contrary to what you might expect,
the breathability make a HUGE difference.

Yep, I do have two breathable (semi-) drytops, which do make a
difference, although with all the flipping that a rodeokayaker does,
their benefit is not as big as with someone who doesnt spend as much
time upside-down or dripping wet. :-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/