On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 11:27:51 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:


As a nation, we've done lots of good things and lots of bad things.
Considering the large number of the latter, we ought to be more cautious
when we're undertaking "things" that will harm people. As an example,
there's no legitimate excuse or justification for what we did to the
native Americans. We destroyed their civilizations.

Now Harry, of course there was. They were heathens and it's a "moral
values" thing. You send missionaries out to convert them, then you kill
what's left. If some of those you have converted are killed, not to
worry, they were probably back-sliders.

I was reading this book about early North American exploration. It said
that the a portion of the French priests that came over to convert the
Native Americans did so with the belief that they were the lost tribe of
Israel.

Could have been. The indigenous population of the Americas resulted from a
mixture of people from various parts of the world for many hundreds, if not
thousands,
of years before the Columbian expeditions.

The original missionary priests in the Mississippi vallley reported discovering
native tribes with blue and hazel eyes, and fair skin. In New England, three
British missionaries were about to be burned at the stake. Two were English,
the third had
grown up speaking Welsh as a child. As the Native Americans were geting ready
to
light off the pyres, the Welsh missionary began calling out to God in his
childhood language. Many of the words were so similar to the language used by
the tribe that had captured these missionaries that some of the captors
understood that he was calling out, in a dialect of *their own language* to a
powerful spirit for help. The missionaries were released unharmed, as a result
of this amazing "sign".

There are literally scores of similar accounts, those are the two I remember
most easily.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:57:25 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


I'm starting a church centered around fishing and pussy.

Drop the fishing part and I'm in.

bb

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
The Constitution proscribes the suppression of religion with equal
zeal.



Agreed. You should be able to start any sort of church you like, and
nobody
should be compelled to attend it.

I'm starting a church centered around fishing and pussy. Sorry to
mention
the two in the same clause, but that's my plan and I'm sticking to it.



Will you be offering ordinations on eBay?

No. There will be only one high priest: Me. I have big plans for the altar
girls. And, there will be the occasional human sacrifice.

Where in the Constitution does it mention separation of church and
state?

It only says that government shall not establish or promote a specific
religion. Insisting that people recite a Christian prayer during an official
government function (public education) would be easily
understood as a government attempt to
establish or promote Christianity over and above all competing religions.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:52:17 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:46:42 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

The native Americans saw
divinity everywhere, and "state enforcement"??? How do you connect that
idea
with their spiritual beliefs???

===========================

Two unrelated thoughts, should have been a new paragraph. My bad.


OK.

Meanwhile, I had a long discussion with a hydrangea yesterday. Not sure if
the two Molsons were in any way connected with the experience.

I just lost half of a very good raisin oatmeal cookie all over my
monitor. :)

Later,

Tom

"Beware the one legged man in a butt
kicking contest - he is there for a
reason."

Wun Hung Lo - date unknown

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:18:41 -0500, "Paul Schilter"
paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote:

Wayne,
I was reading this book about early North American exploration. It said
that the a portion of the French priests that came over to convert the
Native Americans did so with the belief that they were the lost tribe of
Israel. They believed that when all the natives (they didn't have a clue
what "all" entailed) were converted the three riders of the apocalypse would
be unleashed, The scary part was they were reverently working towards that
goal.
Paul

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
.. .
On 08 Nov 2004 03:29:38 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

You want your kids to recite a Christian prayer at the beginning of a
school
day?
There are dozens of schools just like that in most communities- they
aren't
supported by tax dollars nor should they be.

=========================================

Unfortunately the prevailing view of the so called christian right is
that anyone of a different belief is a pagan at best, and should be
converted if possible that their soul may be saved. It's hard to hold
a reasonable discussion with someone of that belief system, and it's
ironic to me that it fosters the same kind of intolerance that the
hard line Islamic's are known for.

Issac Asimov (I think - can't remember - or the name of the story at
the moment) who wrote a story about Tibetan Monks spinning prayer
wheels. Their belief, of course, is that when all the prayers are
said, the end of the world occurs.

So the monks purchased several mainframe computers to say the prayers
and when the computers were switched on, the technicians leaving the
monastery started to notice that the stars were going out. :)

I don't do the story justice, but it was a great story.

Later,

Tom

They had their reasons back then. They were concerned about espionage.
When viewed through the filter of time, it looks like an indefensible
action. But at the time, it was a reasonable thing to do considering the
circumstances.

At the time, it was very similar to the way one of our enemies was treating a
portion of the population that particular government distrusted. Round em up
and imprison them all, sell off their property to the highest bidder belonging
to an approved race. There is no comparison between how
Germany ultimately dealt with a few million of the Jews and how the US and
Canada treated our Japanese citizens- most of those who went to concentration
camp in North America were ultimately released. In fact, all except those who
died from one (nonviolent) cause or another while in camp.

Did you know that some of he interred were second or latter generation
Americans? Many had never been to Japan, were not fluent in Japanese, and were
certainly no more of a threat than the
millions of German American and Italian American families that were descended
from other Axis peoples. The German and Italian families had an advantage. they
didn't "look funny".

"Gould 0738" wrote in message

It only says that government shall not establish or promote a specific
religion.

Not quite -- you've only got the one side. It says the government shall
make *no law* regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free
exercise thereof.

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:57:25 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
The Constitution proscribes the suppression of religion with equal zeal.



Agreed. You should be able to start any sort of church you like, and
nobody
should be compelled to attend it.

I'm starting a church centered around fishing and pussy. Sorry to mention
the two in the same clause, but that's my plan and I'm sticking to it.

The Universal and All Encompassing Cosmic Church of Fish. Fishing and
Associated Carnal Activities.

I like it. :)

Later,

Tom

PS: I had a very different name all ready, but thought better of it -
I'm sure there must be newsgroup readers of the fair sex who don't
make themselves known. :)