On 23 Aug 2003 02:44:28 GMT, Ignoramus25883
wrote:

In article , Tim May wrote:
In article , Ignoramus25883
wrote:

There is only one item in this article with which I mildly disagree:

`` There was certainly no hint in any of the oceans of
confident comment and prediction that issued forth from such circles
before the March-April war that U.S. forces would never be able to
establish effective civilian control over much of Iraq and that
instead it would almost immediately fall into the hands of rabidly
anti-American Shiite and Sunni religious networks and never
thereafter be seriously challenged. ''

But... What about me? What about my comment that it was a bad idea to
invade a country where civilians are armed to the teeth? As an NRA
member, I know very well that it is a bad idea, and I was not shy to
communicate it. But no one listened to the poor old Ignoramus!
Everyone thought that they were genius patriots and that Ignoramus
was, well, an ignorant traitor. Now I am in the unfortunate role of a
Cassandra, which American servicemen are getting killed in Iraq for no
good reason.

And me, and others, even George Bush, Sr. (recall the 1998 book quote I
posted here, which I'll post again at the end, as a reminder).

Okay, so we see a rush of intelligent people trying to establish that
they, too, warned others about the dangers of this invasion. And
obviously your predictions are well remembered. I just wanted to
embellish my own role a little, as that UPI article gave me a perfect
chance.

The stupid sheople "patriots" who thought themselves to be experts in
Realpolitik and salivated at the thought of stolen Iraqi oil, are
slowly realizing that something is not quite right. Expect them to
blame Bush who "misinformed" them. But make no mistake, they were
intentionally blind to his obvious lies.

Even some pro-gun people forgot why the founding fathers intended us
to be armed to the teeth, and decided that invading a country with
much more brutal people who are armed to the teeth with great personal
weapons (RPG-7 and AK-47), was a great idea.

and including (despite Iraq's generally secular population) no small
number of people more than willing to glorify themselves and secure
eternal buddy status with Allah by blowing themselves up along with as
many "oppressors" as possible. People so disposed as notoriously hard
to stop. Israel's experiences with them - even after turning their
entire country into a ****ty, repressive armed camp where fear is
constant, torture sanctioned, and freedom basically nonexistant -
should be ample evidence of that.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.



Kent State University

In article , Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.

Kent State University


Kent State won't happen again.

During the time of Kent State, the U.S. military had little choice
except to kill students who protested their actions. Today, other
choices exist. With the establishment of Camp X-Ray, America's premier
concentration camp, those who speak against the country and its oil
interests can be sent for an indeterminate stay.

Arbeit Macht Frei,


--Tim May

Kent State won't happen again.

During the time of Kent State, the U.S. military had little choice
except to kill students who protested their actions. Today, other
choices exist. With the establishment of Camp X-Ray, America's premier
concentration camp, those who speak against the country and its oil
interests can be sent for an indeterminate stay.

Arbeit Macht Frei,


--Tim May


It wasn't really the "military" who opened fire on the kids at Kent State. It
was mostly other kids, (many no older than the students), serving in the
National Guard.

In recent times, the National Guard is being deployed routinely, but in the
60's there was a draft to keep the armed services fully supplied with fresh
recruits.
Some people (including a future prez or two) went into the National Guard to do

part-time duty stateside rather than go to Viet Nam. National Guardsmen and
ROTC
students had a real tough time on a lot of campuses- they were treated as "sell
outs" by the most vocal portions of the student body. The NGmen couldn't have
been thinking clearly that day. Obviously.

I don't think a professional soldier would have opened fire on kids at
university, especially after they had begun to disperse as ordered. Some of the
kids killed at Kent State were shot in the back- and that makes it difficult to
claim self defense.

Even the worst abuses in Viet Nam, (use My Lai as an example), were often the
result of putting inexperienced young officers and kid soldiers into situations
that required experience and mature judgment.

Most of the people who did their service during that time were good people, and
most who were compelled by conscience to speak out against the war were good
people as well. It's tragic that 40 years later, we all too often characterize
people on either side of the issue by the most extreme behavior of either side
at the time.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:26 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.



Kent State University

And in the middle of the Turbulent 60s, with bomb throwers, mass
riots, takeovers and thrashing hundreds of universities, the only one
you can come up with is Kent State?

Four Dead in Ohiiiooo!

Sounds pretty ****ing reluctant to me.

Gunner

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better,
on average, than the citizens of Baltimore.
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee,
but why this is more stylish than
sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know."
-- P.J O'Rourke (1989)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 25 Aug 2003 15:40:58 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Kent State won't happen again.

During the time of Kent State, the U.S. military had little choice
except to kill students who protested their actions. Today, other
choices exist. With the establishment of Camp X-Ray, America's premier
concentration camp, those who speak against the country and its oil
interests can be sent for an indeterminate stay.

Arbeit Macht Frei,


--Tim May


It wasn't really the "military" who opened fire on the kids at Kent State. It
was mostly other kids, (many no older than the students), serving in the
National Guard.

In recent times, the National Guard is being deployed routinely, but in the
60's there was a draft to keep the armed services fully supplied with fresh
recruits.
Some people (including a future prez or two) went into the National Guard to do

part-time duty stateside rather than go to Viet Nam. National Guardsmen and
ROTC
students had a real tough time on a lot of campuses- they were treated as "sell
outs" by the most vocal portions of the student body. The NGmen couldn't have
been thinking clearly that day. Obviously.

I don't think a professional soldier would have opened fire on kids at
university, especially after they had begun to disperse as ordered. Some of the
kids killed at Kent State were shot in the back- and that makes it difficult to
claim self defense.

Even the worst abuses in Viet Nam, (use My Lai as an example), were often the
result of putting inexperienced young officers and kid soldiers into situations
that required experience and mature judgment.

Most of the people who did their service during that time were good people, and
most who were compelled by conscience to speak out against the war were good
people as well. It's tragic that 40 years later, we all too often characterize
people on either side of the issue by the most extreme behavior of either side
at the time.

Very well said Gould. Thank you.

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:03:45 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:26 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.



Kent State University

And in the middle of the Turbulent 60s, with bomb throwers, mass
riots, takeovers and thrashing hundreds of universities, the only one
you can come up with is Kent State?

Four Dead in Ohiiiooo!

Sounds pretty ****ing reluctant to me.

Gunner


We are talking about the USA military and not Militaries in general,
yes?

******************
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C55B163B5

BAGHDAD - Panicked by the relentless Iraqi resistance attacks that
target them day in and day out, trigger-happy U.S. troops shot dead
pointblank an Iraqi father and three of his four children, one of them
only eight years old, a leading British newspaper reported Sunday,
August 10.
*******************

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1D9513B5

IT started when a young boy hurled a sandal at a US jeep - it ended
with two Iraqis dead and 16 seriously injured.

I watched in horror as American troops opened fire on a crowd of 1,000
unarmed people here yesterday.

Many, including children, were cut down by a 20-second burst of
automatic gunfire during a demonstration against the killing of 13
protesters at the Al-Kaahd school on Monday.

***************************

http://makeashorterlink.com/?B21A233B5

(While the information on this link hasn't been proven or sufficently
disproven, the allegation remains, IIRC)

All of this has informed at least the establishment reaction to the
news that Lt. j.g. Bob Kerrey and the six Navy SEALs he led into the
Mekong Delta village of Thanh Phong on the night of Feb. 25, 1969,
killed--murdered, it has been alleged--at least 13 unarmed women and
children

******************

Behind Colin Powell's Legend

After a brief mention of the My Lai massacre in My American Journey,
Powell penned a partial justification of the Americal's brutality. In
a chilling passage, Powell explained the routine practice of murdering
unarmed male Vietnamese.

"I recall a phrase we used in the field, MAM, for military-age male,"
Powell wrote. "If a helo spotted a peasant in black pajamas who looked
remotely suspicious, a possible MAM, the pilot would circle and fire
in front of him. If he moved, his movement was judged evidence of
hostile intent, and the next burst was not in front, but at him.

******************
http://travel.hubcom.net/vietnam/mylai.html

In one of the greatest attrocities of the whole war 504 unarmed
civilians were murdered by American soldiers in the village of My Lai
on the morning of 16th March 1968. The site has been carefully
preserved both as a memorial to those who died and as a museum.

****************

March 31 - US soldiers kill 10 members, all women and children, of the
same family at a checkpoint near Najaf, Iraq.

April 1 - US Marines kill a driver and wound his passenger as he
approaches a checkpoint near Shatra, Iraq. No weapons or explosives
were found.

April 11 - US Marines fire on two cars approaching a checkpoint in
Nasiriyah killing two children and wounding nine others. No weapons or
explosives were found.

April 28 - April 30 - US soldiers kill 20 unarmed protestors when they
fire into crowds in Fallujah, Iraq. Human Rights Watch accuses troops
of excessive force. Ninety civilians wounded.

May 24 - US soldiers kill three teenage boys celebrating a wedding in
a motorcade at a checkpoint in Samarra, north of Baghdad. No weapons
or explosives were found.

May 26 - US soldiers fire on a truck that failed to stop in time at a
roadblock in Samarra, Iraq. Two children are killed.

June 18 - US soldiers fire into a protesting crowd of 500 outside US
Civilian Authority headquarters. Two Iraqi civilians killed.

June 26 - US soldiers on patrol fire on a Baghdad house rooftop
killing a12 -year old carrying a blanket.

June 30 - US soldiers fire on separate cars at checkpoints. Four Iraqi
civilians die. No weapons or explosives found.

July 3 - An Iraqi civilian tells Agence France Presse that he was
handcuffed, gagged and later beaten by a US soldier who found a
handgun in his car.

July 9 - US soldiers atop the Durah police station in Baghdad fire on
an Iraqi civilian fixing a car at a repair shop. Soldiers mistook the
car’s ignition distributor for a grenade.

July 22 - US forces fired into a crowd of 40 to 50 rock-throwing
protesters gathered in Karbala seeking entry to the Imam Hussein
Mosque. One man is killed.

July 26 - The Pentagon announces that four US soldiers will be put
under investigation for beating Iraqi prisoners at detention centers.

July 27 - US soldiers of Task Force 20 kill 11 civilian passers-by
while raiding the home of Prince Rabiah Muhamed Al-Habib in search of
Saddam Hussein. Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez admitted at a Baghdad press
conference that “up to five” might have been killed, but refused to
take responsibility. Eyewitnesses tell reporters that four of the dead
were cremated in the car they were riding, which came under heavy US
gunfire.

July 30 - Two Iraqi civilians on foot shot dead by US soldiers in the
Mansour district of Baghdad, Iraq. No weapons or explosives were
found.

August 8 - US forces fire on a car carrying an Iraqi family at a
checkpoint north of Baghdad. Five Iraqis, including three children,
were killed, and two others wounded.

August11 - US soldiers kill six Iraqi civilians at three different
checkpoints in Baghdad, Iraq. No weapons or explosives were found.

The above list is by no means comprehensive. Other stories of
civilians murdered in Iraq continue to go unreported.

Hoping to stave off the incensed anger of a threatened Iraqi
population, US military officials paid $262,263 in compensation as of
August13 . However, most of the money was for property damaged during
botched raids. US military personnel have refused to comment saying
only that an Iraqi family has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that
US servicemen erred in killing an Iraqi civilian. In most cases, US
military officials said that soldiers fired because they believed they
were threatened.

It remains to be seen whether US forces have been held accountable for
the above deaths, and others.

Human rights organizations have blamed US forces, as the occupying
power, for the high number of civilian deaths. In most cases, Iraqi
eyewitnesses have told this writer that soldiers just scream at
confused Iraqi drivers in English. The Iraqis, who know of the deaths
at checkpoints, panic and often do something wrong in their bid to
avoid being shot or beaten.

* Firas Al-Atraqchi is a Canadian journalist of Iraqi heritage. H

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:03:45 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:26 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.



Kent State University

And in the middle of the Turbulent 60s, with bomb throwers, mass
riots, takeovers and thrashing hundreds of universities, the only one
you can come up with is Kent State?

Four Dead in Ohiiiooo!

Sounds pretty ****ing reluctant to me.

Gunner


And since we are discussing the US military and civilians.. lets not
forget that we (USA Military) has now sunk to kidnapping as well.

http://www.heraldnet.com/Stories/03/7/28/17267240.cfm

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry
Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the
intelligence. Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife
and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you
want your family released, turn yourself in."

And torture

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...news-headlines

ASHLEY, Pa. -- Last year at this time, the four Army reservists were
civilians, leading middle-class lives in the coal-laced hills of
Pennsylvania they had always called home. Two were preparing for
college, one was a state trooper who spent the summer running a camp
for kids, and a fourth had served in Bosnia-Herzegovina and was a
prison corrections officer.

Today, 6,000 miles away and on active duty, the four are at the center
of a controversy that has shaken this old mining town, where their
320th Reserve Military Police Battalion is based: They have been
charged with mistreating and beating Iraqi prisoners of war -- charges
that could lead to courts-martial and prison.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:44:27 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:03:45 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:26 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.



Kent State University

And in the middle of the Turbulent 60s, with bomb throwers, mass
riots, takeovers and thrashing hundreds of universities, the only one
you can come up with is Kent State?

Four Dead in Ohiiiooo!

Sounds pretty ****ing reluctant to me.

Gunner


We are talking about the USA military and not Militaries in general,
yes?

******************
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C55B163B5

BAGHDAD - Panicked by the relentless Iraqi resistance attacks that
target them day in and day out, trigger-happy U.S. troops shot dead
pointblank an Iraqi father and three of his four children, one of them
only eight years old, a leading British newspaper reported Sunday,
August 10.
*******************

http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1D9513B5

IT started when a young boy hurled a sandal at a US jeep - it ended
with two Iraqis dead and 16 seriously injured.

I watched in horror as American troops opened fire on a crowd of 1,000
unarmed people here yesterday.

Many, including children, were cut down by a 20-second burst of
automatic gunfire during a demonstration against the killing of 13
protesters at the Al-Kaahd school on Monday.

***************************

http://makeashorterlink.com/?B21A233B5

(While the information on this link hasn't been proven or sufficently
disproven, the allegation remains, IIRC)

All of this has informed at least the establishment reaction to the
news that Lt. j.g. Bob Kerrey and the six Navy SEALs he led into the
Mekong Delta village of Thanh Phong on the night of Feb. 25, 1969,
killed--murdered, it has been alleged--at least 13 unarmed women and
children

******************

Behind Colin Powell's Legend

After a brief mention of the My Lai massacre in My American Journey,
Powell penned a partial justification of the Americal's brutality. In
a chilling passage, Powell explained the routine practice of murdering
unarmed male Vietnamese.

"I recall a phrase we used in the field, MAM, for military-age male,"
Powell wrote. "If a helo spotted a peasant in black pajamas who looked
remotely suspicious, a possible MAM, the pilot would circle and fire
in front of him. If he moved, his movement was judged evidence of
hostile intent, and the next burst was not in front, but at him.

******************
http://travel.hubcom.net/vietnam/mylai.html

In one of the greatest attrocities of the whole war 504 unarmed
civilians were murdered by American soldiers in the village of My Lai
on the morning of 16th March 1968. The site has been carefully
preserved both as a memorial to those who died and as a museum.

****************

March 31 - US soldiers kill 10 members, all women and children, of the
same family at a checkpoint near Najaf, Iraq.

April 1 - US Marines kill a driver and wound his passenger as he
approaches a checkpoint near Shatra, Iraq. No weapons or explosives
were found.

April 11 - US Marines fire on two cars approaching a checkpoint in
Nasiriyah killing two children and wounding nine others. No weapons or
explosives were found.

April 28 - April 30 - US soldiers kill 20 unarmed protestors when they
fire into crowds in Fallujah, Iraq. Human Rights Watch accuses troops
of excessive force. Ninety civilians wounded.

May 24 - US soldiers kill three teenage boys celebrating a wedding in
a motorcade at a checkpoint in Samarra, north of Baghdad. No weapons
or explosives were found.

May 26 - US soldiers fire on a truck that failed to stop in time at a
roadblock in Samarra, Iraq. Two children are killed.

June 18 - US soldiers fire into a protesting crowd of 500 outside US
Civilian Authority headquarters. Two Iraqi civilians killed.

June 26 - US soldiers on patrol fire on a Baghdad house rooftop
killing a12 -year old carrying a blanket.

June 30 - US soldiers fire on separate cars at checkpoints. Four Iraqi
civilians die. No weapons or explosives found.

July 3 - An Iraqi civilian tells Agence France Presse that he was
handcuffed, gagged and later beaten by a US soldier who found a
handgun in his car.

July 9 - US soldiers atop the Durah police station in Baghdad fire on
an Iraqi civilian fixing a car at a repair shop. Soldiers mistook the
car’s ignition distributor for a grenade.

July 22 - US forces fired into a crowd of 40 to 50 rock-throwing
protesters gathered in Karbala seeking entry to the Imam Hussein
Mosque. One man is killed.

July 26 - The Pentagon announces that four US soldiers will be put
under investigation for beating Iraqi prisoners at detention centers.

July 27 - US soldiers of Task Force 20 kill 11 civilian passers-by
while raiding the home of Prince Rabiah Muhamed Al-Habib in search of
Saddam Hussein. Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez admitted at a Baghdad press
conference that “up to five” might have been killed, but refused to
take responsibility. Eyewitnesses tell reporters that four of the dead
were cremated in the car they were riding, which came under heavy US
gunfire.

July 30 - Two Iraqi civilians on foot shot dead by US soldiers in the
Mansour district of Baghdad, Iraq. No weapons or explosives were
found.

August 8 - US forces fire on a car carrying an Iraqi family at a
checkpoint north of Baghdad. Five Iraqis, including three children,
were killed, and two others wounded.

August11 - US soldiers kill six Iraqi civilians at three different
checkpoints in Baghdad, Iraq. No weapons or explosives were found.

The above list is by no means comprehensive. Other stories of
civilians murdered in Iraq continue to go unreported.

Hoping to stave off the incensed anger of a threatened Iraqi
population, US military officials paid $262,263 in compensation as of
August13 . However, most of the money was for property damaged during
botched raids. US military personnel have refused to comment saying
only that an Iraqi family has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that
US servicemen erred in killing an Iraqi civilian. In most cases, US
military officials said that soldiers fired because they believed they
were threatened.

It remains to be seen whether US forces have been held accountable for
the above deaths, and others.

Human rights organizations have blamed US forces, as the occupying
power, for the high number of civilian deaths. In most cases, Iraqi
eyewitnesses have told this writer that soldiers just scream at
confused Iraqi drivers in English. The Iraqis, who know of the deaths
at checkpoints, panic and often do something wrong in their bid to
avoid being shot or beaten.

* Firas Al-Atraqchi is a Canadian journalist of Iraqi heritage. H

Interesting stats. Now if it had been the Russians and Chesnians, or
just about anyone else, each of those incidents would have been blown
off as the fortunes of war and stupidity at ****ing with armed and
often scared men. And would have resulted in the death of most of the
members of the crowd. I noted some interesting lies by spin in your
list, as well..such as the van failing to stop when warning shots were
fired in front of it, so the troops simply blew it away, only later
finding out it was filled with kids. Seems Momma was either on a Jihad
or terminally stupid. Lots of examples of similar in that biased Al
Gazeera listing. Great examples...snicker.

Now..this has what to do with Kent State?

Gunner

"The French are a smallish, monkey-looking bunch and not dressed any better,
on average, than the citizens of Baltimore.
True, you can sit outside in Paris and drink little cups of coffee,
but why this is more stylish than
sitting inside and drinking large glasses of whiskey I don't know."
-- P.J O'Rourke (1989)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:35:44 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:03:45 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:51:26 -0500, Jake Nichols
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:20:26 -0700, "Dan"
wrote:


A military has few compunctions about firing on armed
combatants, but is more reluctant about doing so on unarmed
civilians.



Kent State University

And in the middle of the Turbulent 60s, with bomb throwers, mass
riots, takeovers and thrashing hundreds of universities, the only one
you can come up with is Kent State?

Four Dead in Ohiiiooo!

Sounds pretty ****ing reluctant to me.

Gunner


And since we are discussing the US military and civilians.. lets not
forget that we (USA Military) has now sunk to kidnapping as well.

http://www.heraldnet.com/Stories/03/7/28/17267240.cfm

Col. David Hogg, commander of the 2nd Brigade of the 4th Infantry
Division, said tougher methods are being used to gather the
intelligence. Wednesday night, he said, his troops picked up the wife
and daughter of an Iraqi lieutenant general. They left a note: "If you
want your family released, turn yourself in."

And torture

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...news-headlines

ASHLEY, Pa. -- Last year at this time, the four Army reservists were
civilians, leading middle-class lives in the coal-laced hills of
Pennsylvania they had always called home. Two were preparing for
college, one was a state trooper who spent the summer running a camp
for kids, and a fourth had served in Bosnia-Herzegovina and was a
prison corrections officer.

Today, 6,000 miles away and on active duty, the four are at the center
of a controversy that has shaken this old mining town, where their
320th Reserve Military Police Battalion is based: They have been
charged with mistreating and beating Iraqi prisoners of war -- charges
that could lead to courts-martial and prison.

Gee, Jake, you forgot to mention this:

"At the beginning of June, before the U.S. offensives, the reward for killing an
American soldier was about $300, an Army officer said. Now, he said, street
youths are being offered as much as $5,000 -- and are being told that if they
refuse, their families will be killed, a development the officer described as a
sign of reluctance among once-eager youths to take part in the strikes."

From the same source. Also, you left out the last part of the paragraph about
Col. Hogg.

You wouldn't be editing accounts to suit some silly-assed agenda of yours, would
you?

Now, look at your last paragraph. It says, in part, "They have been charged
with..." Sounds like the US military is trying to do what's right.

You have lost what credibility you had as an unknown, to me anyway.

Goodbye,


John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD