Doug Kanter wrote:

.... Or, the knuckleheads who
need help docking on a windy day, and when they toss you their line, it's
always 2 feet shorter than the distance from the boat to the dock. Wouldn't
want to buy a 15 ft rope when a 3 footer will work just as well. Sort of.
:-)

Usually this sort of stupidity is self punishing. But the problem is that the
stupid don't learn better no matter how many times it happens.

DSK

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:4uNCb.533010$HS4.4073001@attbi_s01...


Speaking of the ramp, I don't know how enforcable it is (perhaps via
loitering laws hehe) but some of the idiots that tie up / slow down the
ramps need a ticket for *something* LOL.


I know what you mean. There's a whole list of behaviors which fall into the
category of "general lack of consideration", like warming up your 17 year
old Chevy Blazer for 20 minutes right outside your neighbor's open window,
because you think them darn EPA hippies are wrong about fumes being bad for
you.

At one of our local ramps, there's some sort of unofficial thing that goes
on. Officially, they have nubile babes collecting the ramp fee. And
officially, boaters are "advised" by 2-3 old guys who look like they spent
the last 6 months in a life raft. Mostly, they spend their time reminding
the illiterate that ramps are designated for "in" or "out" depending on
traffic, and that the "IN" and "OUT" signs mean (quizzically) "In" or "Out".
UNofficially, these old guys are usually accompanied by equally ancient
buddies who hang around helping kids with bait, or showing newbies how to
operate a cleat. You can sort of tell who's who by the presence or absence
of polo shirts with the township's emblem. ANYWAY....this crew of life raft
veterans does a good job of mildly embarrassing morons at the ramp. Imagine
Don Rickles, toned down by 50%.

My first time at the ramp, this young woman backs her PWC into the water and
ties it up right at the bottom of the ramp. Why move it down to the end so
someone else could launch while you park, especially since there were 30
cars waiting. She parks her car and sits in it for about 5 minutes doing
something to her hair. Meanwhile, nobody can move. One of the old guys yells
to her "Are you gonna get a manicure too, 'cause there are people waiting
but I could see if they'll come back tomorrow". Needless to say, she ended
her beauty parlor routine instantly. You can't argue with a 100 year old man
who obviously knows what he's talking about. :-) There was much laughter
from the waiting cars.

Other nonsense: Signs all over the parking area say "Boaters Only - Vehicles
Without Trailers Will Be Ticketed". All day long, people come up to the
booth and ask the attendant "Do ya think I'll really get a ticket? I don't
have a trailer". Sometimes they approach the cop who's writing tickets and
ask if they can just park for a couple of hours without getting a ticket.
:-)

I really want to make a movie about this stuff. I need a catchy title. The
dumbest people will be featured in the movie without their permission.
Especially the monkeys who, on a really busy afternoon, let their 4 kids run
up and down the dock with fishing poles while other boaters are scrambling
to get in or out and make way for the next person. Or, the knuckleheads who
need help docking on a windy day, and when they toss you their line, it's
always 2 feet shorter than the distance from the boat to the dock. Wouldn't
want to buy a 15 ft rope when a 3 footer will work just as well. Sort of.
:-)


These, and other reasons are why I've started boating on weekdays.....

Dave

"Clams Canino" wrote in message
news:4uNCb.533010$HS4.4073001@attbi_s01...

"swatcop" wrote in message news:INMCb.12534

Thanks for the tip on the narrow areas, although I
would have thought that to be common sense. Maybe it's different in your
area.

It's different here. We have a patch of river 8 miles long and 200 - 300
feet wide. And often the Marine Patroll doods troll right up the middle,
particularly the newer younger guys. I mean, it is "instinct" to drive up
the middle, but if you see a skiier coming it's *nice* to pull aside, as
opposed to watching to see if he'll slow down for you.

And as a question on the safety checks, other than the marinas in my
town, most people use a public boat ramp area. Would you be offended if
the
cops did a safety inspection on your vessel while you were waiting in
line
to launch at a boat ramp? It seems to me like it would save time that
way.

*I* wouldn't be offended at the ramp, no. I tend to be be a comedian about
it and show him the life-preservers, throwables, ski-vests, fire
extinguisher, flares, whistle, horn, anchor, sunscreen, sunglasses, TCW-3,
12 soda, 6 beer, 1 energy drink, 1 milk, 1 orange juice, 1 orange, 2
apple
pies, 1 canned ravioli, 1 Spaghetti-O's Etc etc...

(yanno - we might think it's funny - until the day the Marine Patroll
finds
a subject in hypoglycemic shock and comes screaming after my boat to get
my
goodies - *then* he'll be glad I showed him the Hostess Apple Pies!)

Don't laugh - I actually make notes about those sort of things. I know who
to go in town for various special needs. You may be an asset one day by your
preparedness.


But anyway, a lot of people tend to view a "safety check" like an "MV
stop" - they wanna know what they did to draw your attention in the first
place. shrug

Speaking of the ramp, I don't know how enforcable it is (perhaps via
loitering laws hehe) but some of the idiots that tie up / slow down the
ramps need a ticket for *something* LOL.

I've seen this mentioned a few times. I will keep an eye on inconsiderate
people at the ramp.


-W

PS: Look at bright side - it's *got* to be a lot more fun than S.W.A.T.
work
is!!

Um, NOT!!! I'm much more at home in my "black pajamas" with my AR-15.

Just still be carefull out there. Binoculars are your friend. If you run
into drug runners on a boat, it's way too easy to just shoot the cop and
sink the evidence. Remember *they* already know what's up as your
approaching them.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks. Luckily in my area the Fish & Wildlife
commission and the local Sheriff's marine boat are usually in the water. We
make it a habit to stay in touch with one another while we're out there.
--
-= swatcop =-

"If it wasn't for stupid people I'd be unemployed."

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:55:36 GMT, "swatcop"
wrote:
Would you be offended if the
cops did a safety inspection on your vessel while you were waiting in line
to launch at a boat ramp?

======================================

Absolutely offended. This is intrusive enforcement with no probable
cause. Leave people alone unless they are doing something stupid or
annoying.

cops did a safety inspection on your vessel while you were waiting in line
to launch at a boat ramp?

======================================

Absolutely offended. This is intrusive enforcement with no probable
cause.


I would only be offended that they were squandering police resources for
something that could be accomplished by the boy scouts.

BTW my best experience on the water with law enforcement was a stop by a
Florida Marine Patrol officer who was really looking for fishing violations. In
a very friendly conversation with the officer, who was complimenting me on how
I had my boat rigged, I realized he had seen every piece of required equipment.
That man was a professional. I guess I did make it easy for him since
everything is easily accessible but that is for my safety. My experience with
SW Fla marine officers has always been positive.

On 14 Dec 2003 17:19:54 GMT, (Greg) wrote:

My experience with
SW Fla marine officers has always been positive.

===========================================

That's good to know since that's where I'm doing my boating these days
and we have no shortage of mindless speed zones around here.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 22:55:36 GMT, "swatcop"
wrote:
Would you be offended if the
cops did a safety inspection on your vessel while you were waiting in
line
to launch at a boat ramp?

======================================

Absolutely offended. This is intrusive enforcement with no probable
cause. Leave people alone unless they are doing something stupid or
annoying.

Just F.Y.I., my personal definition of a safety inspection is not to be a
jerk and have a citation writing contest. I was thinking more along the
lines of pointing out to the boaters what equipment is old or missing,
trying to help out, not be an ass with a ticket book. I just figured while
you were in line at the boat ramp and I was walking by I could do a quick
equipment check. YOU may have everything you are supposed to have and
everything might be up to date, but the boaters in front of you and behind
you may be a different story. My idea of safety checks is not to be
intrusive (or trying to establish probable cause to search your boat for
other stuff), but to help. You may have had bad experiences in the past with
other officers, but my outlook is a little bit different. Thank you for your
input, though. I will note you response.
--
-= swatcop =-

"If it wasn't for stupid people I'd be unemployed."

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:50:22 GMT, "swatcop"
wrote:
Just F.Y.I., my personal definition of a safety inspection is not to be a
jerk and have a citation writing contest. I was thinking more along the
lines of pointing out to the boaters what equipment is old or missing,
trying to help out, not be an ass with a ticket book.

================================================== ====

Your attitude is commendable but your role is slightly confused. Your
role as an armed, badge wearing law officer is to enforce the law (in
a hopefully reasonable manner), not to offer helpful suggestions to
people who are not even on the water yet. To me that is overly
intrusive, and comparable to stopping someone who is backing out of
the driveway for a quick safety check of their car.

1/ We have a great program in Canada, which I think exists in many places in
the U.S. too, of "courtesy" inspections. However, I don't know if the police
offers them - I get mine from the CGAux. (In fact, I think the police have a
formal "zero tolerance" policy.) There are no penalties - it's just
advisory. The "advice," if you found to be in violation, is that if a police
officer ever stops you, you will be fined.

So, responsible boaters who have done their best and think their boat is
adequately equipped can have it checked by an authoritative source without
fear of recrimination, and without occupying police resources which perhaps
could be better utilized elsewhere.

The check on my boat takes a good twenty minutes, so I'm not sure how you
could do that in a boat-ramp line-up. (Are they that slow?)

2/ In our society, we all (almost) know how to drive a car, so a police
officer can take special training in highway enforcement, and even advanced
driving techniques, and be a good highway patrolman. But we don't all have
much experience operating boats, and a course or two is very good but
nowhere near the experience and expertise that some recreational boaters
have, so that's a problem I've heard about at times: boaters being ordered
to hold station in a cross-wind with an opposing current in a narrow
shipping channel, for example, which just can't work. A Rule of the Sea is
that the captain (even the owner or operator of a small recreational boat)
is responsible for the safe operation of that vessel, and can refuse orders
from other authorities if he/she believes it necessary. I don't know if
that's written or traditional. And I suspect that you would want to be able
to convince a judge, later, that you weren't just trying to evade the
officer, but really could not in all conscience behave as demanded. That can
often be resolved by a patient police officer asking for clarification -
firmly but politely - or asking in what manner could the boater maneuver
his/her boat in order for the further inspection to proceed, etc.

This should start along the lines of, "I'm sorry officer, but am unable to
comply due to the narrow channel with a cross-wind and current. Could you
suggest an alternate course of action?" Or, "May I suggest an alternate
course of action?" But people are often very threatened and angry when
approached, so handling it professionally I think sometimes requires every
ounce of self-control the officer can muster.

I, for example, have had good, long looks through the Nav Rules on many
occasions, and still learn something new each time I inspect them, and I
sincerely doubt that most weekend marine policemen understand them as well
as I do. That need not be a problem if I remain respectful, and if the
policemen doesn't have the insecurity that some exhibit about having about
limitations of their knowledge, as long as both parties are simply willing
to have a conversation and then to gauge what they think about the accuracy
of the new information and reformulate their plans based on that. I am also
very familiar with my boat, and understand its capabilities and limitation,
and don't expect every police officer to know all about the different
handling characteristics of small planing sailboats, large keel boats,
planing power boats with single or double I/O's or IB's, displacement and
semi-displacement trawlers... there's a lot to know, and it takes years of
boat operation to come to grips with some of it.

Some law enforcers go into bureaucratic mode, and I've heard of, "You're
trying my patience, plead guilty or spend the night in jail," over very
minor stuff that just required a few minutes of calm explanation. From what
I've seen so far, you're not one of those (and I hope they're the minority).

Which is good!

====

Charles T. Low
- remove "UN"
www.boatdocking.com
www.ctlow.ca/Trojan26 - my boat

====

"swatcop" wrote in message
m...
... And as a question on the safety checks, other than the marinas in my
town, most people use a public boat ramp area. Would you be offended if
the
cops did a safety inspection on your vessel while you were waiting in line
to launch at a boat ramp? It seems to me like it would save time that way.
Thank you for your input.
-= swatcop =-

"Charles T. Low" wrote in message
...
1/ We have a great program in Canada, which I think exists in many places
in
the U.S. too, of "courtesy" inspections. However, I don't know if the
police
offers them - I get mine from the CGAux. (In fact, I think the police have
a
formal "zero tolerance" policy.) There are no penalties - it's just
advisory. The "advice," if you found to be in violation, is that if a
police
officer ever stops you, you will be fined.

Luckily I'm not like that. I don't think that a fistfull of citations is the
answer unless the driver/operator is a disrespectful assclown with
absolutely no respect for the safety of others.


So, responsible boaters who have done their best and think their boat is
adequately equipped can have it checked by an authoritative source without
fear of recrimination, and without occupying police resources which
perhaps
could be better utilized elsewhere.

The check on my boat takes a good twenty minutes, so I'm not sure how you
could do that in a boat-ramp line-up. (Are they that slow?)

Well, actually sometimes they are that slow. I've seen 10 to 15 trucks with
boats on the trailer waiting their turn in line.


2/ In our society, we all (almost) know how to drive a car, so a police
officer can take special training in highway enforcement, and even
advanced
driving techniques, and be a good highway patrolman. But we don't all have
much experience operating boats, and a course or two is very good but
nowhere near the experience and expertise that some recreational boaters
have, so that's a problem I've heard about at times: boaters being ordered
to hold station in a cross-wind with an opposing current in a narrow
shipping channel, for example, which just can't work. A Rule of the Sea is
that the captain (even the owner or operator of a small recreational boat)
is responsible for the safe operation of that vessel, and can refuse
orders
from other authorities if he/she believes it necessary. I don't know if
that's written or traditional. And I suspect that you would want to be
able
to convince a judge, later, that you weren't just trying to evade the
officer, but really could not in all conscience behave as demanded. That
can
often be resolved by a patient police officer asking for clarification -
firmly but politely - or asking in what manner could the boater maneuver
his/her boat in order for the further inspection to proceed, etc.

Which is exactly why I am asking for the opinions of people like yourself
with experience.


This should start along the lines of, "I'm sorry officer, but am unable to
comply due to the narrow channel with a cross-wind and current. Could you
suggest an alternate course of action?" Or, "May I suggest an alternate
course of action?" But people are often very threatened and angry when
approached, so handling it professionally I think sometimes requires every
ounce of self-control the officer can muster.

I'm always open for suggestions if I'm not absolutely sure that I'm right on
a certain topic. Some of the "rookies" have that "I'm right and you're
wrong" attitude, but I'm long over that.


I, for example, have had good, long looks through the Nav Rules on many
occasions, and still learn something new each time I inspect them, and I
sincerely doubt that most weekend marine policemen understand them as well
as I do. That need not be a problem if I remain respectful, and if the
policemen doesn't have the insecurity that some exhibit about having about
limitations of their knowledge, as long as both parties are simply willing
to have a conversation and then to gauge what they think about the
accuracy
of the new information and reformulate their plans based on that. I am
also
very familiar with my boat, and understand its capabilities and
limitation,
and don't expect every police officer to know all about the different
handling characteristics of small planing sailboats, large keel boats,
planing power boats with single or double I/O's or IB's, displacement and
semi-displacement trawlers... there's a lot to know, and it takes years
of
boat operation to come to grips with some of it.

Some law enforcers go into bureaucratic mode, and I've heard of, "You're
trying my patience, plead guilty or spend the night in jail," over very
minor stuff that just required a few minutes of calm explanation. From
what
I've seen so far, you're not one of those (and I hope they're the
minority).

I'm definitely not one of "those," and I'm sorry that some idiot with a
badge who obviously had himself confused with an entity berated you. We're
not all like that.


Which is good!

====

Charles T. Low

Thank you for your input, I appreciate it and will note your response.
--
-= swatcop =-

"If it wasn't for stupid people I'd be unemployed."