On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:35:05 -0600, Califbill wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/12/13, 3:21 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

I was just reading that a selectman in a town here in MA (Shrewsbury)
has raised an issue regarding gun ownership. He feels that local police
departments should have the authority to visit registered gun owners'
homes and inspect for required safe storage of the guns. His point is
that laws exist that require locks and/or safes for guns but there are
no means of enforcing these laws.

Hmmmmm....

I pondered that one for a little bit then, because of the discussions
here about horses, I realized something.

A permit is required to have horses permanently on your property ... at
least in our town and many others.

The permit is issued yearly based on an inspection of the stables, barn,
and grounds by the animal control inspector. She checks to ensure
sanitary and safe conditions for both the horse(s) and that may visit in
the barn area.

Is that any different than home inspections for the safe storage of
firearms?

I don't know.




The fact that there are going to be inspections should be widely
announced, but the inspections themselves should be unannounced...just a
ring of the doorbell. But my guess is that the NRA would seek and get a TRO.


Sounds like with that reasoning, the state can come in and inspect any
dwelling or land. Might be a building without the proper permit. Maybe
you have a leaking toilet, and wasting water. Something that was addressed
in the Constitution. DC court tossed the permit to own a gun in DC, did in
they?

I mentioned the next step to 'safety inspections' would be confiscation, but Luddite deleted that in
his response.

"The big difference is in the 'confiscation' arena, which seems to be the next step up the anti-gun
ladder. It sounds as though protection of the horse is the name of their 'inspection' game. You
reckon they're trying to protect guns with their safety inspections. Suppose you like to sleep with
a loaded pistol under your pillow? Does Joe Cop get to confiscate it if he finds it? Sounds like
about ten too many liberals on the town council. "

The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:11:25 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:21:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The permit is issued yearly based on an inspection of the stables, barn,
and grounds by the animal control inspector. She checks to ensure
sanitary and safe conditions for both the horse(s) and that may visit in
the barn area.

Is that any different than home inspections for the safe storage of
firearms?

===

Yes, big difference, unless your stable is also your dwelling.

Inspecting the interior of a home except at the time of construction
or renovation generally requires a search warrant and probable cause,
and that's the way it should stay unless you want to roll the clock
back to colonial times and British rule. It's another example of
northeastern nanny state mentality run amok.

Yeah, what he said.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

It's the GOP that doesn't want progress.....

In article ,
says...

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:35:05 -0600, Califbill wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/12/13, 3:21 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:

I was just reading that a selectman in a town here in MA (Shrewsbury)
has raised an issue regarding gun ownership. He feels that local police
departments should have the authority to visit registered gun owners'
homes and inspect for required safe storage of the guns. His point is
that laws exist that require locks and/or safes for guns but there are
no means of enforcing these laws.

Hmmmmm....

I pondered that one for a little bit then, because of the discussions
here about horses, I realized something.

A permit is required to have horses permanently on your property ... at
least in our town and many others.

The permit is issued yearly based on an inspection of the stables, barn,
and grounds by the animal control inspector. She checks to ensure
sanitary and safe conditions for both the horse(s) and that may visit in
the barn area.

Is that any different than home inspections for the safe storage of
firearms?

I don't know.




The fact that there are going to be inspections should be widely
announced, but the inspections themselves should be unannounced...just a
ring of the doorbell. But my guess is that the NRA would seek and get a TRO.


Sounds like with that reasoning, the state can come in and inspect any
dwelling or land. Might be a building without the proper permit. Maybe
you have a leaking toilet, and wasting water. Something that was addressed
in the Constitution. DC court tossed the permit to own a gun in DC, did in
they?

I mentioned the next step to 'safety inspections' would be confiscation, but Luddite deleted that in
his response.

"The big difference is in the 'confiscation' arena, which seems to be the next step up the anti-gun
ladder. It sounds as though protection of the horse is the name of their 'inspection' game. You
reckon they're trying to protect guns with their safety inspections. Suppose you like to sleep with
a loaded pistol under your pillow? Does Joe Cop get to confiscate it if he finds it? Sounds like
about ten too many liberals on the town council. "

The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

The cops these days have almost limitless power. Get pulled over, the
cop asks to search your vehicle, if you say no, he makes you next few
hours a living hell. All he has to do is say there was probable cause,
which these days is so diluted he can say that at just about any time.
As far as a home, if a cop comes knocking on your door, and if you act
scared, or even make a sudden movement, he can claim probable cause and
search your home.

On 11/13/2013 7:18 AM, John H wrote:


The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




I agree that a search of your home without a warrant showing probable
cause is unfathomable. The sneaky thing about this selectman's proposal
is that the authorization for the cops to search is tied to your permit
to own firearms. In other words, you don't agree .. you can't legally
own a firearm. To me, his idea is that in order to qualify for a gun
permit you must give the police permission to enter and search your home
ahead of time.

Years ago when we were wintering in Florida and Mrs.E's. horses had
been transported down there, we received a letter from our home town
indicating that a barn inspection had been conducted and her permit to
have horses was renewed for another year. Mrs.E. was happy. I was ****ed.

The barn had been secured for the winter. No horses. It's located on
our property. It also contains a lot of fairly expensive equipment and
gear.

What right did a town official have to enter the barn without our
knowledge or permission? I know it was harmless and for a specific
purpose but still the idea that anyone ... town official or private
citizen could enter whenever they felt like it got under my skin.
To me, it's trespassing.

I called the town hall and explained my concern. I wasn't an ass about
it or anything but made the point that if it were anyone else, it would
be considered a break-in, in my opinion. I asked them what would
happen if we reported some equipment as being missing when we returned
in the spring?

I guess the town had never considered anything like that. Since then
they always call the day before they would like to visit for an inspection.

On 11/13/13, 7:38 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:18 AM, John H wrote:


The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this
would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




I agree that a search of your home without a warrant showing probable
cause is unfathomable. The sneaky thing about this selectman's proposal
is that the authorization for the cops to search is tied to your permit
to own firearms. In other words, you don't agree .. you can't legally
own a firearm. To me, his idea is that in order to qualify for a gun
permit you must give the police permission to enter and search your home
ahead of time.

If there is a local law requiring guns to be locked up safely, how is
that law to be enforced?

Here's an idea:

If you have a gun and it is supposed to be locked and a kid gets his
hands on it and shoots himself or someone else, *you* go to prison.

Or, if someone steals a firearm and you don't report it right away, you
go to prison.





--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On 11/13/2013 7:44 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 11/13/13, 7:38 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:18 AM, John H wrote:


The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this
would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




I agree that a search of your home without a warrant showing probable
cause is unfathomable. The sneaky thing about this selectman's proposal
is that the authorization for the cops to search is tied to your permit
to own firearms. In other words, you don't agree .. you can't legally
own a firearm. To me, his idea is that in order to qualify for a gun
permit you must give the police permission to enter and search your home
ahead of time.

If there is a local law requiring guns to be locked up safely, how is
that law to be enforced?

Here's an idea:

If you have a gun and it is supposed to be locked and a kid gets his
hands on it and shoots himself or someone else, *you* go to prison.

Or, if someone steals a firearm and you don't report it right away, you
go to prison.



Those are already distinct possibilities. You can be charged for
negligence and for not storing the firearms in the prescribed manner by law.

This will **** off the Tea Party types here, but I would not object to
an inspection of my firearm storage. If a cop knocked on the door
right now and asked if I voluntarily agreed to him coming in and
checking how my guns are stored, I'd say, "Come on in".

On 11/13/13, 7:57 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:44 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 11/13/13, 7:38 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:18 AM, John H wrote:


The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this
would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




I agree that a search of your home without a warrant showing probable
cause is unfathomable. The sneaky thing about this selectman's proposal
is that the authorization for the cops to search is tied to your permit
to own firearms. In other words, you don't agree .. you can't legally
own a firearm. To me, his idea is that in order to qualify for a gun
permit you must give the police permission to enter and search your home
ahead of time.

If there is a local law requiring guns to be locked up safely, how is
that law to be enforced?

Here's an idea:

If you have a gun and it is supposed to be locked and a kid gets his
hands on it and shoots himself or someone else, *you* go to prison.

Or, if someone steals a firearm and you don't report it right away, you
go to prison.



Those are already distinct possibilities. You can be charged for
negligence and for not storing the firearms in the prescribed manner by
law.

This will **** off the Tea Party types here, but I would not object to
an inspection of my firearm storage. If a cop knocked on the door
right now and asked if I voluntarily agreed to him coming in and
checking how my guns are stored, I'd say, "Come on in".




I don't have any problem with such an inspection, either. There are no
kids running around here, and all but one home defense weapon are locked
up in a safe. We don't get many doorbell ringers around here, other than
UPS/FEDEX and the Sunday church ladies, and I always peek on the video
monitor before I open the door anyway. Anyone breaking in at night meets
Mr. 12 Gauge.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On 11/13/13, 11:57 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 07:44:45 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

If there is a local law requiring guns to be locked up safely, how is
that law to be enforced?

Here's an idea:

If you have a gun and it is supposed to be locked and a kid gets his
hands on it and shoots himself or someone else, *you* go to prison.


There are several of those cases working their way through the court
as we speak.


Florida? $25 fine, right?


--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/13/13, 7:57 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:44 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 11/13/13, 7:38 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:18 AM, John H wrote:


The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this
would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




I agree that a search of your home without a warrant showing probable
cause is unfathomable. The sneaky thing about this selectman's proposal
is that the authorization for the cops to search is tied to your permit
to own firearms. In other words, you don't agree .. you can't legally
own a firearm. To me, his idea is that in order to qualify for a gun
permit you must give the police permission to enter and search your home
ahead of time.

If there is a local law requiring guns to be locked up safely, how is
that law to be enforced?

Here's an idea:

If you have a gun and it is supposed to be locked and a kid gets his
hands on it and shoots himself or someone else, *you* go to prison.

Or, if someone steals a firearm and you don't report it right away, you
go to prison.



Those are already distinct possibilities. You can be charged for
negligence and for not storing the firearms in the prescribed manner by
law.

This will **** off the Tea Party types here, but I would not object to
an inspection of my firearm storage. If a cop knocked on the door
right now and asked if I voluntarily agreed to him coming in and
checking how my guns are stored, I'd say, "Come on in".




I don't have any problem with such an inspection, either. There are no
kids running around here, and all but one home defense weapon are locked
up in a safe. We don't get many doorbell ringers around here, other than
UPS/FEDEX and the Sunday church ladies, and I always peek on the video
monitor before I open the door anyway. Anyone breaking in at night meets Mr. 12 Gauge.


Paranoid, or you live in a high crime district.

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/13/13, 7:38 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/13/2013 7:18 AM, John H wrote:


The idea that a cop could search, warrantless, your home and this
would be acceptable is
unfathomable.


John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!




I agree that a search of your home without a warrant showing probable
cause is unfathomable. The sneaky thing about this selectman's proposal
is that the authorization for the cops to search is tied to your permit
to own firearms. In other words, you don't agree .. you can't legally
own a firearm. To me, his idea is that in order to qualify for a gun
permit you must give the police permission to enter and search your home
ahead of time.

If there is a local law requiring guns to be locked up safely, how is
that law to be enforced?

Here's an idea:

If you have a gun and it is supposed to be locked and a kid gets his
hands on it and shoots himself or someone else, *you* go to prison.

Or, if someone steals a firearm and you don't report it right away, you go to prison.






In California, your guns not secured and a kid gets them, you can go to
prison. What happens if you do not realize a weapon has been stolen?
Still go to prison? What if you car is stolen, and is in an accident, and
you have not reported it stolen?