On 7/12/2012 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened. Hothing was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why, because it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all actual
exist.


If you discover that you don't exist, can I have your Mini?

"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened.
Hothing was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the
universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't
just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why, because
it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he
doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's
own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum
fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all
actual
exist.




I'm sure about me...but...are you more than a collection of electrons
here?

Seriously, though (ha), the inability of man to know with certainly of
the existence of a creator is reason enough to be agnostic. We believe
such will remain unknown or unknowable and thus, our skepticism.

It's ironic to me that so many religious fundamentalists deny
evolution
when so much of what they believe is the result of the evolution of
religion itself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ancient humans didn't have the scientific evidence and knowledge
that we have today but I think they had inquiring minds and
intelligence.
Without the scientific evidence it is perfectly understandable to me
that various "creators" were envisioned with an evolution and
embellishment of stories over the centuries. The fact is, there is
still no answer of how all this came to be. I have no problem with
those of "faith" who believe in a God or Creator. It's still as good
of an answer as any scientific theory, so far. The stories of course
are a little far-fetched, but it's part of the faith of the believers.

If we survive another 1000 years (which is doubtful) imagine how
our descendants will view our current beliefs and/or scientific
evidence.

On 7/12/12 9:36 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened. Hothing
was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why, because it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all actual
exist.




I'm sure about me...but...are you more than a collection of electrons here?

Seriously, though (ha), the inability of man to know with certainly of
the existence of a creator is reason enough to be agnostic. We believe
such will remain unknown or unknowable and thus, our skepticism.

It's ironic to me that so many religious fundamentalists deny evolution
when so much of what they believe is the result of the evolution of
religion itself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ancient humans didn't have the scientific evidence and knowledge
that we have today but I think they had inquiring minds and intelligence.
Without the scientific evidence it is perfectly understandable to me
that various "creators" were envisioned with an evolution and
embellishment of stories over the centuries. The fact is, there is
still no answer of how all this came to be. I have no problem with
those of "faith" who believe in a God or Creator. It's still as good
of an answer as any scientific theory, so far. The stories of course
are a little far-fetched, but it's part of the faith of the believers.

If we survive another 1000 years (which is doubtful) imagine how
our descendants will view our current beliefs and/or scientific
evidence.






I don't disagree. And my "problem" with religion is not that people
believe in a creator...it's that many of them try to shovel their
religious beliefs onto others or onto society. That's also been the
"problem" with religion since religion's beginnings.

"Jim" wrote in message ...

On 7/12/2012 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's
own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum
fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all
actual
exist.




If you discover that you don't exist, can I have your Mini?
-----------------------------------------

Sure, assuming of course that *it* exists.

On 7/12/2012 9:41 AM, X ` Man wrote:
On 7/12/12 9:36 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened. Hothing
was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the
universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why, because it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all actual
exist.




I'm sure about me...but...are you more than a collection of electrons
here?

Seriously, though (ha), the inability of man to know with certainly of
the existence of a creator is reason enough to be agnostic. We believe
such will remain unknown or unknowable and thus, our skepticism.

It's ironic to me that so many religious fundamentalists deny evolution
when so much of what they believe is the result of the evolution of
religion itself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ancient humans didn't have the scientific evidence and knowledge
that we have today but I think they had inquiring minds and intelligence.
Without the scientific evidence it is perfectly understandable to me
that various "creators" were envisioned with an evolution and
embellishment of stories over the centuries. The fact is, there is
still no answer of how all this came to be. I have no problem with
those of "faith" who believe in a God or Creator. It's still as good
of an answer as any scientific theory, so far. The stories of course
are a little far-fetched, but it's part of the faith of the believers.

If we survive another 1000 years (which is doubtful) imagine how
our descendants will view our current beliefs and/or scientific
evidence.






I don't disagree. And my "problem" with religion is not that people
believe in a creator...it's that many of them try to shovel their
religious beliefs onto others or onto society. That's also been the
"problem" with religion since religion's beginnings.


A little primmer on society for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

It's not up to you to decide who pushes what.

"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 9:36 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened.
Hothing
was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the
universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't
just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why,
because it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he
doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's
own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum
fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all
actual
exist.




I'm sure about me...but...are you more than a collection of
electrons here?

Seriously, though (ha), the inability of man to know with certainly
of
the existence of a creator is reason enough to be agnostic. We
believe
such will remain unknown or unknowable and thus, our skepticism.

It's ironic to me that so many religious fundamentalists deny
evolution
when so much of what they believe is the result of the evolution of
religion itself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ancient humans didn't have the scientific evidence and knowledge
that we have today but I think they had inquiring minds and
intelligence.
Without the scientific evidence it is perfectly understandable to me
that various "creators" were envisioned with an evolution and
embellishment of stories over the centuries. The fact is, there is
still no answer of how all this came to be. I have no problem with
those of "faith" who believe in a God or Creator. It's still as
good
of an answer as any scientific theory, so far. The stories of
course
are a little far-fetched, but it's part of the faith of the
believers.

If we survive another 1000 years (which is doubtful) imagine how
our descendants will view our current beliefs and/or scientific
evidence.






I don't disagree. And my "problem" with religion is not that people
believe in a creator...it's that many of them try to shovel their
religious beliefs onto others or onto society. That's also been the
"problem" with religion since religion's beginnings.

---------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I don't see anyone trying to shovel any religious doctrine
down my throat and in the past 3 years I've met more people that
have close to "fundamentalist" views on religion than any other
time in my life. One of the surprising things I learned about
musicians ... and guitar players in particular ... is the large number
of them who play at their church services. I can easily come up
with at least 30 people who frequent the shop weekly who
are involved in this. None have ever tried to impose any religious
beliefs onto me or anyone else that I know of.

I haven't been in a church (for services) since Mrs.E. and I were
married 42 years
ago. Maybe those that know me are concerned that their church would
be
hit with a bolt of lightning if I ever showed up.

On 7/12/2012 10:12 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 9:36 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
...

On 7/12/12 8:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened. Hothing
was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the
universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why, because it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

"What" that "something" is or was is the key to the next step in
understanding
the mystery that surrounds us ... assuming of course that we all actual
exist.




I'm sure about me...but...are you more than a collection of electrons
here?

Seriously, though (ha), the inability of man to know with certainly of
the existence of a creator is reason enough to be agnostic. We believe
such will remain unknown or unknowable and thus, our skepticism.

It's ironic to me that so many religious fundamentalists deny evolution
when so much of what they believe is the result of the evolution of
religion itself.

---------------------------------------------------------

Ancient humans didn't have the scientific evidence and knowledge
that we have today but I think they had inquiring minds and intelligence.
Without the scientific evidence it is perfectly understandable to me
that various "creators" were envisioned with an evolution and
embellishment of stories over the centuries. The fact is, there is
still no answer of how all this came to be. I have no problem with
those of "faith" who believe in a God or Creator. It's still as good
of an answer as any scientific theory, so far. The stories of course
are a little far-fetched, but it's part of the faith of the believers.

If we survive another 1000 years (which is doubtful) imagine how
our descendants will view our current beliefs and/or scientific
evidence.






I don't disagree. And my "problem" with religion is not that people
believe in a creator...it's that many of them try to shovel their
religious beliefs onto others or onto society. That's also been the
"problem" with religion since religion's beginnings.

---------------------------------------------------

Frankly, I don't see anyone trying to shovel any religious doctrine
down my throat and in the past 3 years I've met more people that
have close to "fundamentalist" views on religion than any other
time in my life. One of the surprising things I learned about
musicians ... and guitar players in particular ... is the large number
of them who play at their church services. I can easily come up
with at least 30 people who frequent the shop weekly who
are involved in this. None have ever tried to impose any religious
beliefs onto me or anyone else that I know of.

I haven't been in a church (for services) since Mrs.E. and I were
married 42 years
ago. Maybe those that know me are concerned that their church would be
hit with a bolt of lightning if I ever showed up.


They say that music touches the soul.

On 7/12/2012 5:51 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"X ` Man" wrote in message
m...

On 7/12/12 7:35 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/7/2012 7:31 AM, Oscar wrote:
On 7/6/2012 10:45 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the
chair-bound guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened. Hothing was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the universe.

There has to be a before. Who lit the fuse? The big bang didn't just
happen.


Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

We know the effect, we don't know the cause.


So, then, why *assume* some sort of "god" was involved. Why, because it
is just another example of man trying to explain away what he doesn't
know via religious belief. Superstition.

----------------------------------------------------------

The problem with the "quantum fluctuation" answer is that by it's own
rules,
something had to exist before the Big Bang to have a quantum fluctuation
*in*
(thereby causing the Big Bang)

It is well established that time is a relativistic dimension of the
universe. How do we know it to exist (as cause-effect) outside of it?

On 7/12/2012 6:14 AM, Jim wrote:
On 7/11/2012 10:21 PM, thumper wrote:
On 7/7/2012 7:52 AM, BAR wrote:
In article , lid says...

On 7/5/2012 4:45 PM, BAR wrote:

It's all about what caused the big bang. If you take the chair-bound
guy
in England's view then you believe that it just happened. Hothing was
there before, it just happened.

There was no 'before'. Time is a property/dimension of the universe.

Time is measured from one point to another point. Without a "before"
there has to be a beginning. What was the beginning? Where did the
energy from the beginning come from or did it just exist in a state of
no time.

Only within this universe. What is south of the south pole?

Stand on the south pole and take 10 paces to the south. I think you will
find yourself marching in place.

You got it.

On 7/12/2012 6:18 AM, Meyer wrote:
On 7/11/2012 10:19 PM, thumper wrote:

Why not? Explain what causes quantum fluctuation.

Mexican food. ;-)

Feels about right...