On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

oxtail wrote:

Fred C. Dobbs wrote:


A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity. Prior to
its existence, there is no entity and thus no welfare, so coming into
existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by breeding them
into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We facilitate their
existence, but that existence is not a gift or benefit to them. No
matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do exist, existence
itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for whatever
reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals into existence. The
fact that "billions of farm animals" would thereby never exist would
have no moral meaning to any animals. There would not be any lack of
consideration shown.



If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future,
you have no business to worry
about what other people do or think.


You are confusing categories again. One can be concerned about future
animals' welfare because one anticipates that they *will* exist. One
can prepare for their welfare in advance to be ready for when they *do*
exist. This does not mean that coming into existence itself is part of
their welfare. Once a calf, for instance, is in gestation, it already
exists as an embryo or fetus. One can then be concerned with its
welfare, even before it is born, because it is an actual entity of some
kind. Prior to that preparation requires imagination because there is
no entity yet to deal with in any way.

Robert

= = = = = = = =

bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:

bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:

bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:

Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There would
not be any lack of consideration shown.



If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no business to
worry
about what other people do or think.


of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.



You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.


just a period of pain on earth.



But necessary to be enlightened.


the unborn don't give a flying ****.

well.....if you're busy in cyclical rebirth, they may indeed.
all depends on your belief system.

hey oxtail - do cows experience rebirth?

Robert

= = = = = = = =

On 1/07/2010 11:33 AM, halfawake wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:

bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:

bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:

Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There would
not be any lack of consideration shown.



If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no business to
worry
about what other people do or think.


of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.



You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.


just a period of pain on earth.



But necessary to be enlightened.


the unborn don't give a flying ****.

well.....if you're busy in cyclical rebirth, they may indeed.
all depends on your belief system.

hey oxtail - do cows experience rebirth?

Robert

= = = = = = = =

yes i brought this up to further
complicate things already, but i
think it's better to take what is
said very logically. if they say
pre existence they mean pre any
kind of existence including the
existence prior to physicality.

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We
facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would
thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

Depends on the human folks. I can think of a few that could stand a killin'.

On 1/07/2010 3:50 PM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We
facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals
into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would
thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

Depends on the human folks. I can think of a few that could stand a
killin'.


i've had to make the choice and
luckily, fate intervened before
i had to, but it was very hard.

On 1/07/2010 3:53 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:50 PM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We
facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or
benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals
into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would
thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

Depends on the human folks. I can think of a few that could stand a
killin'.


i've had to make the choice and
luckily, fate intervened before
i had to, but it was very hard.

cuz he was a close friend.

On 1/07/2010 3:55 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:53 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:50 PM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an
entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We
facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or
benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once
they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and
for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals
into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would
thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals. There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

Depends on the human folks. I can think of a few that could stand a
killin'.


i've had to make the choice and
luckily, fate intervened before
i had to, but it was very hard.

cuz he was a close friend.

i should explain. i'm not a psychopath.
they were involved in underground deals
i talked them out of it, but then they
were getting more serious and starting
to be a threat to others.. themselves.

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 3:55 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:53 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:50 PM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an
entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We
facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or
benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once
they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and
for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals
into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would
thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals.
There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

Depends on the human folks. I can think of a few that could stand a
killin'.


i've had to make the choice and
luckily, fate intervened before
i had to, but it was very hard.

cuz he was a close friend.

i should explain. i'm not a psychopath.
they were involved in underground deals
i talked them out of it, but then they
were getting more serious and starting
to be a threat to others.. themselves.

That's OK, I figured there was a back story but I don't really need to know
about it.

On 1/07/2010 4:43 PM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 3:55 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:53 PM, bundling snowfalls wrote:
On 1/07/2010 3:50 PM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 6:46 AM, Dutch wrote:

"bundling snowfalls" wrote in message
...
On 1/07/2010 5:39 AM, zenworm wrote:
On Jun 30, 2:34 pm, bundling wrote:
On 1/07/2010 2:29 AM, oxtail wrote:





bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 2:04 AM, oxtail wrote:
bundling snowfalls wrote:

On 1/07/2010 1:56 AM, oxtail wrote:
Fred C. Dobbs wrote:

A benefit is something that improves the welfare of an
entity.
Prior to its existence, there is no entity and thus no
welfare, so
coming into existence cannot improve an entity's welfare.

We do not "give the gift of life" to livestock animals by
breeding
them into existence; we do not do them any "favor". We
facilitate
their existence, but that existence is not a gift or
benefit to
them. No matter how pleasant their lives might be once
they do
exist, existence itself is not a benefit to them.

No harm would be inflicted on any animals if, suddenly and
for
whatever reason, we were to stop breeding livestock animals
into
existence. The fact that "billions of farm animals" would
thereby
never exist would have no moral meaning to any animals.
There
would
not be any lack of consideration shown.

If you are not smart enough
to be concerned about the welfare
of sentient beings to be born in the future, you have no
business to
worry
about what other people do or think.

of course the welfare matters you idiot. it's about the
existence of
them in future. in particular, existence being bred for meat.

grow up you guys, that's about enough.

You are not getting it.
This is about how to think well
and whether life is sacred.

just a period of pain on earth.

But necessary to be enlightened.

the unborn don't give a flying ****.


for the birds?

^~

i'm a good aim with a rifle and
i shot a bird on my best friends
farm one day, glad i did it. i
see how superficial the joy i
was having was compared to the
life i took, or just winged it?
there was no joy anymore for me.

Some guys live for that feeling, different strokes I guess.


well put it this way, it's better
than killing other human folks.

Depends on the human folks. I can think of a few that could stand a
killin'.


i've had to make the choice and
luckily, fate intervened before
i had to, but it was very hard.

cuz he was a close friend.

i should explain. i'm not a psychopath.
they were involved in underground deals
i talked them out of it, but then they
were getting more serious and starting
to be a threat to others.. themselves.

That's OK, I figured there was a back story but I don't really need to
know about it.


hang on.... one more bandaid..
...here.. and here.. oh faaahk.
there's gallons of the stuff.