"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions
that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How
about producing decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some low
skilled laborer excess money, then the decent product is
priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to
renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a contract. If
there's good management in place, then the union members
will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the reason
for those egregious contracts. American car companies at the
time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry about fiscal
responsibility when you could pass on the cost and produce
crappy cars. Now the real market rate is maybe 25% of the
negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used Hyundai station
wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car, 70% the
price of a comparable American car. Buy American? Not when it
comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate? How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union. It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with different
facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere else if they
need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced then it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech factory
in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were assembled
overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35 an hour. Due to
government overspending and excess union contracts we have priced
America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government has added to this.
Most government contracts require "prevailing wages". They mean union
wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries. But due
to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad you
realized that, and pointed it out.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How
about producing decent products that people want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a contract.
If there's good management in place, then the union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate? How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union. It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced then it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35 an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union contracts we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries. But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand previously.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
om...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How
about producing decent products that people want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a contract.
If there's good management in place, then the union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate? How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union. It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced then it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35 an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union contracts we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries. But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@earthlink. com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How
about producing decent products that people want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union. It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35 an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union contracts we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries. But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:09 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@earthlink .com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How
about producing decent products that people want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union. It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35 an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union contracts we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries. But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

OMG, now you're lying about lying. I can't believe what a liar you
are.

"jps" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:09 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@earthlin k.com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited
by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of
the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management?
How
about producing decent products that people want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying
some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should
seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth.
A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the
market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the
cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is
maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good
car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into
being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are
paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay
even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which
is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union.
It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per
se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop
goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced
then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35
an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union contracts
we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government
has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing
wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries.
But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

OMG, now you're lying about lying. I can't believe what a liar you
are.

Believe what you want. Since you believe in Change, no matter that we are
getting changed in to a 3rd world financial entity, you will believe
anything.

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:54:05 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:09 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@earthli nk.com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
message
...
"JohnH" wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited
by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of
the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management?
How
about producing decent products that people want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying
some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should
seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth.
A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the
market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the
cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is
maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good
car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into
being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are
paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay
even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate, which
is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the union.
It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it per
se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the shop
goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced
then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above $35
an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union contracts
we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs. Government
has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing
wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries.
But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost. Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

OMG, now you're lying about lying. I can't believe what a liar you
are.

Believe what you want. Since you believe in Change, no matter that we are
getting changed in to a 3rd world financial entity, you will believe
anything.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear a peep from you when Bush was handing out tax
cuts to billionaires and spending money like water in Iraq.

Did the cat have your tongue?

Liar.