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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:54:05 -0800, "Bill McKee"
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m...
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:09 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


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On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@eart hlink.com...

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...will last until the union or the government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from
its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason
cited
by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting
another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and
its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence
of
the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from
management?
How
about producing decent products that people
want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying
some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the
decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company
should
seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the
union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are
worth.
A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor
cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the
at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the
market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM
is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out
completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is
the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why
worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on the
cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is
maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good
car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy
American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with
less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate.
Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into
being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are
paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market
rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would pay
even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the
bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate,
which
is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the
union.
It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it
per
se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and
will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the
shop
goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean
by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant
somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be outsourced
then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a
tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives
were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above
$35
an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union
contracts
we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs.
Government
has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing
wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate
is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you
don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We
can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be
the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world countries.
But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess
regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost.
Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand
previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

OMG, now you're lying about lying. I can't believe what a liar you
are.

Believe what you want. Since you believe in Change, no matter that we
are
getting changed in to a 3rd world financial entity, you will believe
anything.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear a peep from you when Bush was handing out tax
cuts to billionaires and spending money like water in Iraq.

Did the cat have your tongue?

Liar.

I complained about Bush also. He just did not pay off Wall Street like
the present resident of the White House.



Never heard of Paulson I guess....

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, he paid off Paulson with $400 mill in tax free. They should all be
arrested and tried for fraud and theft. Especially Goldmansackus for all
the naked shorts, etc.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"jps" wrote in message
news On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:54:05 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:09 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
news:0ircf557orp341079nghsajh8c5j9sn8d2@4ax .com...
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@ear thlink.com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
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...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
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m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote
in
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m...

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...
"Bill McKee" wrote
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m...

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"JohnH" wrote
in
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...
...will last until the union or the
government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from
its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason
cited
by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting
another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in
the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and
its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence
of
the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from
management?
How
about producing decent products that people
want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are
paying
some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the
decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company
should
seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the
union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are
worth.
A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled labor
cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over the
at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the
market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM
is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out
completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is
the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why
worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on
the
cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is
maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee,
good
car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy
American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with
less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate.
Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into
being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies are
paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market
rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would
pay
even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the
bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate,
which
is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the
union.
It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it
per
se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and
will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the
shop
goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean
by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant
somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be
outsourced
then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a
tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk drives
were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above
$35
an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union
contracts
we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs.
Government
has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing
wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market rate
is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you
don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We
can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to be
the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world
countries.
But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess
regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost.
Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand
previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

OMG, now you're lying about lying. I can't believe what a liar you
are.

Believe what you want. Since you believe in Change, no matter that we
are
getting changed in to a 3rd world financial entity, you will believe
anything.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear a peep from you when Bush was handing out tax
cuts to billionaires and spending money like water in Iraq.

Did the cat have your tongue?

Liar.

I complained about Bush also. He just did not pay off Wall Street like
the present resident of the White House.



Never heard of Paulson I guess....

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, he paid off Paulson with $400 mill in tax free. They should all be
arrested and tried for fraud and theft. Especially Goldmansackus for all
the naked shorts, etc.

Bush paid off Wall Street for 8 years.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:01:59 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

Bush paid off Wall Street for 8 years.

It's all comin' back in to GW. He's splittin' $19 a seat with 3 other
speakers and a promoter on a bang up motivational tour.

Sure did feather his nest alright. People in business like him a lot,
apart from those who've had to close their businesses due to the
economy tanking. People with bank accounts, 401Ks and pension plans
like him too, apart from those who've lost a ****load of value or all
of it.

What a guy! Sure would like to have a beer with him.

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"jps" wrote in message
news On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:54:05 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
news:ukjef51cm2gj1r1qoie36u3q40jbc0ktpd@4ax. com...
On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 13:12:09 -0800, "Bill McKee"
wrote:


"jps" wrote in message
news:0ircf557orp341079nghsajh8c5j9sn8d2@4a x.com...
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 15:16:32 -0800, "nom=de=plume"
wrote:

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news:uKmdnUunEfEGa2jXnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@ea rthlink.com...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
message
...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
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m...

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...
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m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
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...
"Bill McKee" wrote in
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m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote
in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
message
...
"Bill McKee"
wrote in
message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in
message
...
"JohnH"
wrote in
message
...
...will last until the union or the
government
figures
out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from
its
unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason
cited
by
the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting
another
round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched
concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in
the
spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger,
and its
vice
president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a
statement
that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was
"evidence of
the
contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from
management?
How
about producing decent products that people
want to
buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are
paying
some
low skilled laborer excess money, then the
decent
product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company
should
seek
to renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a
contract.
If there's good management in place, then the
union
members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are
worth.
A
lot less than they are making. $65 bundled
labor cost
to
install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth?
Who
determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the
company.
Between the union and **** poor management over
the at
least
40 years before the crash, there is no way the car
companies
can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_
the
market
rate. Looks like Ford is going to do ok and even GM
is
doing
better. Chrysler I think is on the way out
completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is
the
reason for those egregious contracts. American car
companies
at the time had 80 or 90% of the world market. Why
worry
about fiscal responsibility when you could pass on
the
cost
and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate
is
maybe
25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a
used
Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee,
good
car,
70% the price of a comparable American car. Buy
American?
Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a car with
less
warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate.
Yes.
****-poor management. I agree. Thus, unions came into
being.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Look at what the non union successful car companies
are
paying
and a valid market rate is less than that.

Huh? Non union car companies not paying a valid market
rate?
How
do you figure that one?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They pay less, have less onerous work rules, and would
pay
even
less, if the unions were not getting a bunch from the
bankrupt
companies and taxpayers.

So, the non-union car companies pay a valid market rate,
which
is
fine if you can convince the workers to get rid of the
union.
It
doesn't happen that often, but I have no problem with it
per
se.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Basically the non union shops pay the workers enough and
will
build
a plant somewhere else if they need more capacity if the
shop
goes
union.

Thus they pay the valid market rate. Not sure what you mean
by
"enough." Union shops pay a valid market rate also, but
with
different facts involved. They will also build a plant
somewhere
else
if they need more capacity union or no union.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Valid market rate? If the job could financially be
outsourced
then
it
will be. In the 1980's the fully bundled labor costs in a
tech
factory in Malaysia was about $3.50 an hour. Why disk
drives were
assembled overseas, as the bundled labor cost here was above
$35
an
hour. Due to government overspending and excess union
contracts
we
have priced America out of most manufacturing jobs.
Government
has
added to this. Most government contracts require "prevailing
wages".
They mean union wages and not what the prevailing market
rate is.



You're the one who keeps mentioning the valid rate, but you
don't
want
to name it. We can't compete on labor costs with Malaysia. We
can
compete on quality and innovation. I don't think we want to
be the
McDees of disk drives.

--
Nom=de=Plume


We used to compete with Malasia and all the 3rd world
countries.
But
due to overspending by our government and lots of excess
regulations
we
priced ourselves out of most markets.

I thought it was the unions' fault.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Right and Harry and you and the unions added to the excess cost.
Glad
you
realized that, and pointed it out.

Bill, everything "adds" to costs. That's the nature of the world.

I *am* glad I pointed it out, since you didn't understand
previously.

By Bill's definition, you are lying.

Everyone who doesn't agree with Bill is lying.

Another lie.

OMG, now you're lying about lying. I can't believe what a liar you
are.

Believe what you want. Since you believe in Change, no matter that we
are
getting changed in to a 3rd world financial entity, you will believe
anything.

I'm sorry, I didn't hear a peep from you when Bush was handing out tax
cuts to billionaires and spending money like water in Iraq.

Did the cat have your tongue?

Liar.

I complained about Bush also. He just did not pay off Wall Street like
the present resident of the White House.



Never heard of Paulson I guess....

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, he paid off Paulson with $400 mill in tax free. They should all be
arrested and tried for fraud and theft. Especially Goldmansackus for all
the naked shorts, etc.

Bush paid off Wall Street for 8 years.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Goes back further than Bush. Probably the worst move was under Clinton when
he allowed Rubin's to get the Glass-Stegal act killed.