On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:46:11 -0500, H the K
wrote:

On 11/4/09 2:22 PM, jps wrote:
On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:08:25 -0500, H the
wrote:

On 11/4/09 11:05 AM, nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
. ..
In ,
says...

nom=de=plume wrote:

Sure thing. No need for an America-first attitude. Greed, for lack of a
better word, is unpatriotic.

That's the essence of your political belief system.

The next time there is a natural disaster somewhere in the third world
America shouldn't be first with relief, we should be last with relief.
Let the rest of the world step up and help the people in need first.


Why? With great power comes great responsibility, assuming we are who we
claim to be.



BAR is co-chair here of the Republican "I've got mine, so **** you" club.

FlaToeJam is the welcoming committee
Herring is in charge of Incloosion Illoosion
Jackoff heads up sheets and hats
The Freak is equipment manager
Tim provides counsel to the baptised
Insurance reseller resells insurance to anyone willing to buy


What a line-up!

Palin-approved!

Forgot DK as the dedicated Teabagger

Jack wrote:
On Nov 3, 8:19 pm, wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
....
On Nov 3, 5:40 pm, John wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:59:08 -0800, "nom=de=plume"

wrote:
wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay

Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent
products that people want to buy?

lol lol

Ford is producing America's best vehicles. Their corporate leadership
has put them into a strong position, not having to take any bailout
money.

Wonderful!

Funny how the union thugs always blame a struggling company on the
management, but in this case, the union wants to take credit for
management's success. Freakin' union leeches.

I thought Ford wasn't struggling? Does the management team build the cars or
is that done by the workers?

Union management is the most corrupt entity in big business... right
behind Chicago politics.

It has been in the past. Don't know if union management is now. Let's assume
it is. Does that excuse management greed?

What about the greed of the union organizers who rely on the dues of
hard working people for their income? Do you really think they are in
it for the cause?

Of course not. They'll run a company into the ground, all the while
trumpeting that they are "collective bargaining" for the employees.
They've done it many times, while, as you say, they earn their
impressive salaries from the sweat of their indentured workers.

In the real world, "collective bargaining" is called coercion, or
"strong-arm tactics". It's illegal.


But largely unenforceable.

-S

Canuck57 wrote:
Stevie wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Nov 3, 5:40 pm, John wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:59:08 -0800, "nom=de=plume"





wrote:
wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay

Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent
products that people want to buy?

lol lol

Ford is producing America's best vehicles. Their corporate leadership
has put them into a strong position, not having to take any bailout
money.

Wonderful!

Funny how the union thugs always blame a struggling company on the
management, but in this case, the union wants to take credit for
management's success. Freakin' union leeches.

I thought Ford wasn't struggling? Does the management team build the
cars or
is that done by the workers?

Union management is the most corrupt entity in big business... right
behind Chicago politics.

It has been in the past. Don't know if union management is now. Let's
assume
it is. Does that excuse management greed?


What about the greed of the union organizers who rely on the dues of
hard working people for their income? Do you really think they are in
it for the cause?

They were all greedy and killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

Even now, they lay it on non-auto businesses and people to pay for it.
And like dumb little sheep they still will vote Democrat/Obama. Because
they are too stupid to know better.

True.

-S

Jim wrote:
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...
"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay

Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume

They are decent products. But if you are paying some low skilled
laborer excess money, then the decent product is priced out of the
market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to
renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a contract. If there's good
management in place, then the union members will feel better about
consessions.

There's another option. Ford can tell the unions to **** off.

If it were only that simple...

-S

nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Bill wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some low skilled
laborer
excess money, then the decent product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to renegotiate.
It
takes two parties to make a contract. If there's good management in
place,
then the union members will feel better about consessions.


They should be at-will employees, each accountable for their hard work and
dedication to the product they make and the company that employs them.
Union crap like seniority, and other entitlements, only penalize the hard
workers. The payroll and overhead of the union organizers would land
right into the pockets of the workers if they had any self respect. They
are ****ing away millions in dues in order for some to be slackers who
just happened to be on the job a few years earlier than the rest.

-S


I agree. They should be, but since management was so bad for so long, that's
not going to happen any time soon.

As is the normal practice, they can and should attempt to renegotiate the
terms. You do believe in negotiation don't you? Or, do you think a lock out
will work?


In a democratic society of people who can think for themselves, the
negotiation process typically takes place as a one-on-one interview -
not a wholesale demand for a pay increase without regard for individual
performance. In that case, the slackers win and the motivated lose.

-S

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work
force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that
workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some low skilled
laborer excess money, then the decent product is priced out of the
market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to
renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a contract. If there's good
management in place, then the union members will feel better about
consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A lot less than
they are making. $65 bundled labor cost to install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who determines this? You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the company. Between the
union and **** poor management over the at least 40 years before the
crash, there is no way the car companies can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market rate. Looks
like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is doing better. Chrysler I think
is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the reason for those
egregious contracts. American car companies at the time had 80 or 90% of
the world market. Why worry about fiscal responsibility when you could pass
on the cost and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is maybe 25%
of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used Hyundai station wagon a
couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car, 70% the price of a comparable
American car. Buy American? Not when it comes with a 42% premium. For a
car with less warrantee.

nom=de=plume wrote:
"Bill wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
"Bill wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some low skilled
laborer excess money, then the decent product is priced out of the
market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to renegotiate.
It takes two parties to make a contract. If there's good management in
place, then the union members will feel better about consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A lot less than
they are making. $65 bundled labor cost to install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who determines this? You?


It should be the open market. Not back-room negotiating by union thugs
who suck money from their members.

-S

nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Nov 3, 5:40 pm, John wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:59:08 -0800, "nom=de=plume"





wrote:
wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay

Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent
products that people want to buy?

lol lol

Ford is producing America's best vehicles. Their corporate leadership
has put them into a strong position, not having to take any bailout
money.

Wonderful!

Funny how the union thugs always blame a struggling company on the
management, but in this case, the union wants to take credit for
management's success. Freakin' union leeches.

I thought Ford wasn't struggling? Does the management team build the cars
or
is that done by the workers?

Union management is the most corrupt entity in big business... right
behind Chicago politics.

It has been in the past. Don't know if union management is now. Let's
assume
it is. Does that excuse management greed?


What about the greed of the union organizers who rely on the dues of hard
working people for their income? Do you really think they are in it for
the cause?

-S


I'm unsure. Probably some are for the cause, some are for the money. That's
really beside the point. It's still a negotiation that has to take place.


It doesn't *have* to take place. Trust me. I've talked to enough union
employees to know that the hard working hate it and the slackers love it.

-S

"Stevie" wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:
wrote in message
...
nom=de=plume wrote:
"Bill wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How about producing
decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some low skilled
laborer
excess money, then the decent product is priced out of the market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to renegotiate.
It
takes two parties to make a contract. If there's good management in
place,
then the union members will feel better about consessions.


They should be at-will employees, each accountable for their hard work
and
dedication to the product they make and the company that employs them.
Union crap like seniority, and other entitlements, only penalize the
hard
workers. The payroll and overhead of the union organizers would land
right into the pockets of the workers if they had any self respect.
They
are ****ing away millions in dues in order for some to be slackers who
just happened to be on the job a few years earlier than the rest.

-S


I agree. They should be, but since management was so bad for so long,
that's
not going to happen any time soon.

As is the normal practice, they can and should attempt to renegotiate the
terms. You do believe in negotiation don't you? Or, do you think a lock
out
will work?


In a democratic society of people who can think for themselves, the
negotiation process typically takes place as a one-on-one interview - not
a wholesale demand for a pay increase without regard for individual
performance. In that case, the slackers win and the motivated lose.

-S


So, you're saying that each individual worker should negotiate with
management about health, safety, employment practices, benefits, etc.? Talk
about bringing a company to a standstill....

As with the rest of our country, the union members elected their leadership
for better or worse. This is called a representative democracy.


--
Nom=de=Plume

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
...will last until the union or the government figures out a way
to
stop it.

" Ford is also running into resistance from its unionized work
force
as it tries to cut costs further.

Its improving fortunes were the main reason cited by the United
Automobile Workers on Monday for rejecting another round of labor
concessions that would have roughly matched concessions that
workers
at Chrysler and General Motors approved in the spring."

The U.A.W.'s president, Ron Gettelfinger, and its vice president
in
charge of the Ford unit, Bob King, said in a statement that the
carmaker's third-quarter profit was "evidence of the contributions
that Ford workers have made.""

http://tinyurl.com/ya4pyay


Why should they cave to demands from management? How about
producing decent products that people want to buy?

--
Nom=de=Plume


They are decent products. But if you are paying some low skilled
laborer excess money, then the decent product is priced out of the
market.

Then, when the contract expires the company should seek to
renegotiate. It takes two parties to make a contract. If there's good
management in place, then the union members will feel better about
consessions.

--
Nom=de=Plume


Yup, they should pay the workers what they are worth. A lot less than
they are making. $65 bundled labor cost to install a lug nut?

Yes. I agree. What, pray tell, are they worth? Who determines this?
You?

--
Nom=de=Plume


The market place. Not the union strong arming the company. Between the
union and **** poor management over the at least 40 years before the
crash, there is no way the car companies can succeed.

Hate to tell you, but a negotiated contract _is_ the market rate. Looks
like Ford is going to do ok and even GM is doing better. Chrysler I think
is on the way out completely.

--
Nom=de=Plume


The artificial market rate. **** Poor management is the reason for those
egregious contracts. American car companies at the time had 80 or 90% of
the world market. Why worry about fiscal responsibility when you could
pass on the cost and produce crappy cars. Now the real market rate is
maybe 25% of the negotiated rate. My daughter bought a used Hyundai
station wagon a couple years ago. 100k warrantee, good car, 70% the price
of a comparable American car. Buy American? Not when it comes with a 42%
premium. For a car with less warrantee.

Please show us the data for the "real" market rate. Yes. ****-poor
management. I agree. Thus, unions came into being.

--
Nom=de=Plume