wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:06:55 -0400, Tosk
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I think the mentality of a kayaker is that they may end up in the water
so they are inherently more prepared than "casual canoe paddlers". Also,
older or less mobile folks tend to choose to sit in a canoe rather than
kneel or sit in a kayak... My point again is that kayak paddlers are
more equipt and prepared for a swamping...

Maybe the "owners". I am just talking about the renters I see.

The owners do seem to carry around a bit of attitude and defy power
boats to encroach on their right of way, real or imagined.
When they are in the channel that can be a dangerous attitude to have.
I am glad they are prepared to get swamped. I go slow most of the time
but I am in the minority.
Wayne knows, this can be a pretty tricky river to negotiate and some
guys push it pretty hard. I am real surprised we haven't had a bad
accident.

We have the collage (shell) rowing teams practicing all winter in the Grand
Canal over here. It's good, sheltered water and a great place for them to
practice but they haul ass with everyone looking the wrong way!
I was almost hit in the pontoon when I kicked it into neutral after seeing a
manatee right in front of my boat. Thing was going faster than we were when
we were in gear when my wife yelled for them to look out. Yeah, we got the
dirty looks.
Rear view mirrors would be a good idea on those things.

In article m,
says...

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:06:55 -0400, Tosk
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I think the mentality of a kayaker is that they may end up in the water
so they are inherently more prepared than "casual canoe paddlers". Also,
older or less mobile folks tend to choose to sit in a canoe rather than
kneel or sit in a kayak... My point again is that kayak paddlers are
more equipt and prepared for a swamping...

Maybe the "owners". I am just talking about the renters I see.

The owners do seem to carry around a bit of attitude and defy power
boats to encroach on their right of way, real or imagined.
When they are in the channel that can be a dangerous attitude to have.
I am glad they are prepared to get swamped. I go slow most of the time
but I am in the minority.
Wayne knows, this can be a pretty tricky river to negotiate and some
guys push it pretty hard. I am real surprised we haven't had a bad
accident.

We have the collage (shell) rowing teams practicing all winter in the Grand
Canal over here. It's good, sheltered water and a great place for them to
practice but they haul ass with everyone looking the wrong way!
I was almost hit in the pontoon when I kicked it into neutral after seeing a
manatee right in front of my boat. Thing was going faster than we were when
we were in gear when my wife yelled for them to look out. Yeah, we got the
dirty looks.
Rear view mirrors would be a good idea on those things.

My wife was learning to paddle last year. We were out in the middle of
the lake and my wife was having problems navigating through the current
and the wind so I was trying to move in to tie her on. A shell was
coming from about half way across the lake and heading toward us. I kept
yelling as they closed but the guy directing and the chase boat
(motorized) paid no attention. The skull came through and hit my wife
and kept right on going. When I confronted them at the dock later the
little asshole said something of the sort that "we have the right of
way" even though my wife was not in control of her vessel at the time.
"Besides" he said, "it's *our* lake". If there wasn't a cop in the
parking lot... Arrogant prick. The next week he cried like a baby when I
waked them with the Brockway.. Prissy little bitch, lucky I didn't swamp
'em... I hate guys who tie sweaters around their necks...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran over
a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy is in a
white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the channel
area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat doing 35
knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next yak is going
to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when paddling. Sort of
the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a sailboat, I have the
right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a
yak. Could not get completely out of the way. He is in the back, f'n
around with something and the tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is
not looking at all where he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at
the time or he would be explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards.
Could not get his numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had
sailboats with the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90
degree term. And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and
only charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I
heard a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker
entering SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

On 10/19/09 5:49 PM, Tosk wrote:

My wife was learning to paddle last year. We were out in the middle of
the lake and my wife was having problems navigating through the current
and the wind so I was trying to move in to tie her on. A shell was
coming from about half way across the lake and heading toward us. I kept
yelling as they closed but the guy directing and the chase boat
(motorized) paid no attention. The skull came through and hit my wife
and kept right on going. When I confronted them at the dock later the
little asshole said something of the sort that "we have the right of
way" even though my wife was not in control of her vessel at the time.
"Besides" he said, "it's *our* lake". If there wasn't a cop in the
parking lot... Arrogant prick. The next week he cried like a baby when I
waked them with the Brockway.. Prissy little bitch, lucky I didn't swamp
'em... I hate guys who tie sweaters around their necks...


The skull? Do you mean the sculler?

If there wasn't a cop in the parking lot, what? What would you have
done? Assaulted someone? Is that your preferred way of settling
difference? Would you have snapped your doo rag at the guy? And a week
later, you "waked" a shell deliberately? You could have killed someone.

For a short little ****, you sure get yourself into a lot of altercations.



--
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are
conservatives. - John Stuart Mill

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.



Taught by whom? Not out here, as far as I know.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two
together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats"
out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago.
Guy is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of
the channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is
why my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red
PFD when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters.
I am in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a
sailboat in Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely
out of the way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the
tiller is locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where
he is headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only
charging battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard
a sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering
SF Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take
a chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in
gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?

No dispute from me, except that "technically" you're not a powerboat, unless
the engine is engaged in driving the boat. Not sure what the anchor comment
has to do with it, since you're not (obviously) underway. If you're unclear
about what the rules actually say on the matter, look it up.

I'm certain that you're right, however, when it comes to how a court would
react. That's a seperate question, which is why I consider myself a
powerboat if I have the engine on. It's not technically accurate, but it is
accurate in practice.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Jim" wrote in message
...
H the K wrote:
On 10/18/09 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers
wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.


You're supposed to squeeze your cooler in an innertube and tow it
behind your canoe or kayak. That way, the cool river water helps keep
your ice from wasting away and your beer from tasting like Miller Lite.


I like Miller Lite. You like Corona. Beer drinkers make fun Corona.


Pacifico here... too many trips to Mexico! That and Guiness... too many
trips to Ireland!

--
Nom=de=Plume


I rarely drink, but if in MX or a Mexican restaurant it is Negro Modelo.
Dark beer is so much better.

I don't like Mexican dark beer. It just doesn't have the flavor of Guiness.

--
Nom=de=Plume

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 17:32:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.

Not really. Even Americas Cup racers are permitted to run an engine
for charging purposes while racing.

I have an outboard on my boat. If I am just noodling around and not
trying to set any speed records, I may leave the engine in the water
while sailing, even though it is not running. That may look like I'm
motoring to you, but if you don't see a black sphere hanging from my
spreaders, or a steaming light, I'm a sailboat.

That's the LAW.

If I am running my engine in neutral, I am still 100% a sailboat. That
is the law. It is the responsibility of all mariners to pay attention
to lights and dayshapes.

Also bear in mind that a boat that is motoring with it's sails up is
somewhat restricted in it's ability to manuver. Power boats can slow,
stop, and turn immediately in any direction. A motorsailer, not so
much.

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
easolutions...
"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year,
over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks
are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the
ferryboat doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why
my next yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD
when paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am
in a sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is
headed. I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be
explaining the hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his
numbers and the other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with
the motor running turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term.
And other sailboaters say, maybe he was not under power and only charging
battery. BS. Motor running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a
sailboater claim he had the right of way over a large tanker entering SF
Bay. He will be both dead, and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but
I agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I
consider myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see
the raw water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com




You get in a crash and and the motor is running and claim you were not in
gear, and are a sailboat, you are going to lose! As long as the motor is
on, your are technically a power boat. You could reach over and put it in
gear. Same as if just before the crash you pop it into neutral. If an
anchored powerboat is considered a powerboat when anchored, you think the
court will let you get away claiming under sail status when the engine is
running?

"nom=de=plume" wrote in message
...
"Jim" wrote in message
...
H the K wrote:
On 10/18/09 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.


You're supposed to squeeze your cooler in an innertube and tow it behind
your canoe or kayak. That way, the cool river water helps keep your ice
from wasting away and your beer from tasting like Miller Lite.


I like Miller Lite. You like Corona. Beer drinkers make fun Corona.


Pacifico here... too many trips to Mexico! That and Guiness... too many
trips to Ireland!

--
Nom=de=Plume


I rarely drink, but if in MX or a Mexican restaurant it is Negro Modelo.
Dark beer is so much better.