wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I watched a family playing with an Ocean Kayak the other day. It looked
like they were having a great time paddleing out through the breakers
and surfing them back in. They would roll off them to swim and get back
in easily. The thing didn't tip over once while I was watching.

H the K wrote:
On 10/18/09 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.


You're supposed to squeeze your cooler in an innertube and tow it behind
your canoe or kayak. That way, the cool river water helps keep your ice
from wasting away and your beer from tasting like Miller Lite.


I like Miller Lite. You like Corona. Beer drinkers make fun Corona.

Edgar wrote:

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.

It certainly feels like that would be the case, but in fact its not very
common. From a major study:
"The extent to which other vessels contribute to
canoe and kayak fatalities is harder to determine.
In its review of narrative accident data, the ACA
found only a few fatal accidents positively
identified as involving another vessel."
The study goes on to point out that there are a number of fatal capsizes
that are un-witnessed and thus we can't know if another vessel is
involved. We'll certainly never know how many deaths are caused by
wakes from passing boats. But, isn't that simply one of the implied
risks of padding? Certainly, no one should paddle a canoe or kayak
across a busy harbor without wearing a PFD.

The study also points out that the low profile of touring kayaks does
not seem to be a factor in accidents or fatalities. In fact, touring
kayaks were only involved in a small number of fatalities, about one per
year.

http://www.americancanoe.org/atf/cf/...7D/SEI_CJ2.pdf

About 15 years ago, when kayaking took off, there was a belief amongst
paddlers that the rules implied that the "smaller boat always had the
right of way." While there is some truth to that in many state rules
that cover inland lakes (i.e. not covered by the ColRegs or Inland
Rules), that is certainly not the case in most cruising waters.
Fortunately, safety education for paddlers now teaches the real rules
and the prudence of avoiding busy waters.

I would have guessed PWC's often run over canoes, but in fact the
generally run over each other:
"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions
with other PWC."
http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 08:05:41 -0400, Jeff wrote:

"70% of PWC accidents are collisions and 70% of these are collisions
with other PWC."
http://www.ridetechnology.com/accident.html

And it's easy to see why when you watch the promotional videos. They
are always shown as toys being ridden in circles, in close proximity
to each other. People buy them thinking that is normal behavior on
the water.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:02 -0400, "mmc" wrote:

On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees, meaning if
the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull
rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave
pushed
the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to
rotate on it's long axis.

Once the mast of a monohull gets rotated past horizontal, i.e. well
into the water, it usually breaks.

I'd think that would depend on the mast configuration and rig strength,
right? For instance, a Westsail 32 would probably come through something
like this in a lot better shape than a Hunter 30.

"Jim" wrote in message
...
H the K wrote:
On 10/18/09 9:47 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they
are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing
my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.


You're supposed to squeeze your cooler in an innertube and tow it behind
your canoe or kayak. That way, the cool river water helps keep your ice
from wasting away and your beer from tasting like Miller Lite.


I like Miller Lite. You like Corona. Beer drinkers make fun Corona.


Pacifico here... too many trips to Mexico! That and Guiness... too many
trips to Ireland!

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Jim" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:34:54 -0400, Jeff wrote:

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

The only difference I see is canoes can carry a bigger cooler so they
may drink more beer. PFD use is spotty for both craft on our river.
The real scary thing is they seem to have no respect for power boats
and assume they are not only seen but will be yielded right of way.
When the power boat is a PWC things can get real dicey since most PWC
drivers refuse to give anyone quarter. They assume they have no wake.

I watched a family playing with an Ocean Kayak the other day. It looked
like they were having a great time paddleing out through the breakers and
surfing them back in. They would roll off them to swim and get back in
easily. The thing didn't tip over once while I was watching.


I did ocean kayaking a few years ago. It was off Monterey. Glad I had a
wetsuit.

--
Nom=de=Plume

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
m...

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Jeff" wrote in message
...


I'd be curious to see the numbers. Canoe deaths were 80 last year, over
10% of the total; while kayak deaths were 34, or 5%. However, Kayak
sales
are about 4 times canoes, so there is a discrepancy. The two together
have been selling about half a million a year recently, though falling
off
last year. So its quite possible that the number of "paddle boats" out
there are equal to the number of small open power boats (or at least a
significant percentage of them) which were involved in 350 deaths last
year.

So I could believe that canoes are responsible for a disproportional
number of deaths, but not kayaks. My hunch is that most kayakers wear
PFDs, but many canoe users are actually fishing and don't think they are
at risk.

Although I often wear a PFD while kayaking, I have trouble convincing my
wife to do so, because we almost always kayak in very protecting
fla****er, often only a few feet deep.

I would expect a number of any deaths reported from canoes and kayaks are
due to them being run down by fast power boats in the hands of idiots.




Actually it is the paddler that is most often the idiot. I almost ran
over a shell in a light fog in San Francisco Bay a couple years ago. Guy
is in a white shell, wearing a white shirt, and is in the middle of the
channel area. Luckily it was me, going maybe 20 mph and not the ferryboat
doing 35 knots. You could hardly see the idiot at 30'. Is why my next
yak is going to be a bright color. And I wear a bright red PFD when
paddling. Sort of the same mentality as a lot of sailboaters. I am in a
sailboat, I have the right of way. My wife got hit by a sailboat in
Mission Bay, SD. while in a yak. Could not get completely out of the
way. He is in the back, f'n around with something and the tiller is
locked and he is doing 10-12 and is not looking at all where he is headed.
I did not have the VHF with me at the time or he would be explaining the
hit-run to the police and lifeguards. Could not get his numbers and the
other witness didn't either. I have had sailboats with the motor running
turn directly in front of me with a 90 degree term. And other sailboaters
say, maybe he was not under power and only charging battery. BS. Motor
running, is a power boat. Same as I heard a sailboater claim he had the
right of way over a large tanker entering SF Bay. He will be both dead,
and wrong.

Technically, the engine needs to be engaged for it to be under power, but I
agree with you. If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat. I figure that the other guy is going to see the raw
water coming out, and that might be enough to fool him. Why take a
chance....

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

In article m, mmc wrote:

Don't know if anyone else has pitched in on this. A ballasted keel mono hull
sail boat wants to right itself the more it heels due to the ballast and
leverage. Monohulls get knocked down at sea and stand back up on thier own,
unlike thier multihull counterparts. I guess if a sailor is real lucky and
the hull is lying across the wind and you get a good gust it could push the
boat upright but if the sails are still set, it might just keep going over
and back into the same predicament.

Wind doesn't capsize keelboats, waves do. Wind may knock it flat, but
nowhere near enough to capsize. Once the boat has been knocked flat the
wind no longer has any effect, as soon as the gust has passed the boat
comes back up-righ.

If a keelboat does capsize, and, as I think you're saying, the wind
against the keel is enough to right the boat, all a strong wind can
do is knock the boat down again, not capsize it.

Of course, anything that's not ballasted is a going to experience
things differently.


The flotation at the masthead is an idea that Hobie came out with way back
when, necessary to keep the boat from "turtling" when the mast fills with
water. With a Hobie, turtling would be a huge PITA, with a larger multi
nothing short of a crane is going to make things right (or upright haha).
There's a thing called "righting moment" when talking about mono hulls which
is the point the hull has to attain in order for the boat to recover from
turtling. On my Traveler 32' the righting moment was 165 degrees,

I think you mean the angle of vanishing stability. The "righting moment"
is completely different, it isn't a point, it's a measure of force that
is calculated by multiplying the distance between the centre of gravity
and centre of buoyancy by the boat mass.

Your AVS may be 165 degrees (that's very high). What that means is that
when the boat is tipped that far from upright it is as likely to fully
capsize as it is likely to come back upright. The correlation of this is
that, as you say, tipping from inverted by more than 15 degrees would
cause your boat to right.

meaning if
the boat completely capsized, it would recover on its own once the hull
rotated 16 degrees from exactly upside down. Like when the next wave pushed
the boat sideways and the resistance offered by the rig caused the hull to
rotate on it's long axis.

Justin.

--
Justin C, by the sea.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:44:15 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

If I turn on my engine, even if it's in neutral, I consider
myself a powerboat.

That is the way the rules are being taught and interpreted these days.