On Nov 14, 4:04 pm, Boater wrote:
BAR wrote:
tin cup wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and
gambling did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in
a union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever
and paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them
before 6 mos.

Why should a guy putting lug nuts on a wheel get a six figure income?

Why should you have any job?

Being in the market for a new truck, I have looked at Consumer Reports
and guess what, Toyota and Nissan are rated higher for quality than
Ford or GM. Same is true for smaller SUVs like the Highlander.
Back in the mid-80s, I read where auto workers were making $60K/yr for
unskilled labor. No way the auto companies can make anything decent
when they pay such outrageous wages for unskilled ppl.
Let em die. No bailout for bull****.
Harry needs to see who runs congress these days. It is the Dems who
will not tell us where our money is going. It is the Dems that caused
this problem, Dodd, Frank and Reid. Hang em from a lamppost along
with their false messiah.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
On Nov 14, 4:04 pm, Boater wrote:
BAR wrote:
tin cup wrote:
Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and
gambling did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in
a union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever
and paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them
before 6 mos.

Why should a guy putting lug nuts on a wheel get a six figure income?

Why should you have any job?

Being in the market for a new truck, I have looked at Consumer Reports
and guess what, Toyota and Nissan are rated higher for quality than
Ford or GM. Same is true for smaller SUVs like the Highlander.
Back in the mid-80s, I read where auto workers were making $60K/yr for
unskilled labor. No way the auto companies can make anything decent
when they pay such outrageous wages for unskilled ppl.
Let em die. No bailout for bull****.
Harry needs to see who runs congress these days. It is the Dems who
will not tell us where our money is going. It is the Dems that caused
this problem, Dodd, Frank and Reid. Hang em from a lamppost along
with their false messiah.

Yep. The dems screwed it up and then get control of the works.

Going to be a long depression/recession.

"tin cup" wrote in message
...
Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.

Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

On Nov 14, 6:50*pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
"tin cup" wrote in message

...



Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. *Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. *They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. *The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. *No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.

Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. *If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

I do remember back in the mid 1970's. It seemed that the UAW would
strike and picket GM at the drop of a hat. What for? Higher wages, of
course! Then came the cars that were one third the size of the
earlier part of the 70's, with even more shoddy material and
workmanship, and cost about one third more than the larger machines of
the earlier portion of the same decade.

wrote:
On Nov 14, 6:50 pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
"tin cup" wrote in message

...



Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.
Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

I do remember back in the mid 1970's. It seemed that the UAW would
strike and picket GM at the drop of a hat. What for? Higher wages, of
course! Then came the cars that were one third the size of the
earlier part of the 70's, with even more shoddy material and
workmanship, and cost about one third more than the larger machines of
the earlier portion of the same decade.
So...... the unions designed the cars???
The CEO and Board and many levels of mgt made perhaps 20 to 50 times
average Employee...the Employee is greedy????

"tin cup" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Nov 14, 6:50 pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
"tin cup" wrote in message

...



Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and
gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.
Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they
would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be
solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

I do remember back in the mid 1970's. It seemed that the UAW would
strike and picket GM at the drop of a hat. What for? Higher wages, of
course! Then came the cars that were one third the size of the
earlier part of the 70's, with even more shoddy material and
workmanship, and cost about one third more than the larger machines of
the earlier portion of the same decade.
So...... the unions designed the cars???
The CEO and Board and many levels of mgt made perhaps 20 to 50 times
average Employee...the Employee is greedy????

Yup, they are greedy, so are the unions. And excess greed is why they are
in the dire straits they are in.

wrote in message
...
On Nov 14, 6:50 pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
"tin cup" wrote in message

...



Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and
gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.

Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they
would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

I do remember back in the mid 1970's. It seemed that the UAW would
strike and picket GM at the drop of a hat. What for? Higher wages, of
course! Then came the cars that were one third the size of the
earlier part of the 70's, with even more shoddy material and
workmanship, and cost about one third more than the larger machines of
the earlier portion of the same decade.
----

But now they want their hands in non-union tax payers pockets from coast to
coast, north and south.

Think, why should a worker say in Oregon pay for an executive in Detroit?
Why should a person cutting lumber in BC bail out an Ontario plant for a
product they can't afford, don't like and don't want?

And I am a capitalist. Government should be out of business period.

GMs problems are simple, they are one or more of the following:

- cost to much
- unreliable crap compared to others
- costs are out of control
- crappy management and destructive unions
- can't afford it
- credit no good

Solve the first 4 and their problems go away. The only way right now to do
that is chapter 11.

Recovery plan that will work.

1) Chapter 11 - Judge calls the shots.

2) If the plant or facility is losing money, bye-bye, close it with a 4-sale
sign. Axe everyone, no transfers especially poisoned dysfunctional
management.

3) If the plant is marginal, fire senior management and replace them from
outside with real bottom like customer orientated business people. Give the
union 72 hours to accept a new contract which simply states: "You can quit
at any time, you will have a job if you stay in so long as this plant makes
money in the month, every month. We reserve the right to close without
notice. We now pay 1/2 (or less) of prior rates. Severance is not an
option.".

4) Fire ALL senior executives including the CEO and board. A board member
may stay provided they own more than 5% of the company in common stock or
preferred shares. Otherwise they pack, no severance.

5) Liquidate excess inventory, fire sale. Raise cash to pay creditors in
order.

6) Pension and other benefits, now a union issue.

7) New HR policies, no show, slackers, poor quality gets you fired. If
union resists, close the facility.

8) Reorganize debt. Common shares, preferred shares and bond holders are
likely out.

9) Anyone getting in the way, or hindering 1-8 above is in contempt of
court. Set the hearing date and fire them.

Problem solved. Lean and mean. Run it by the books for a year or two, then
put it back on the market. Probably go for $100 share.

I think I mean take control of the company.

"Canuck57" wrote in message
...


GMs problems are simple, they are one or more of the following:

- cost to much
- unreliable crap compared to others
- costs are out of control
- crappy management and destructive unions
- can't afford it
- credit no good

Solve the first 4 and their problems go away. The only way right now to
do that is chapter 11.

Recovery plan that will work.

1) Chapter 11 - Judge calls the shots.

2) If the plant or facility is losing money, bye-bye, close it with a
4-sale sign. Axe everyone, no transfers especially poisoned dysfunctional
management.

3) If the plant is marginal, fire senior management and replace them from
outside with real bottom like customer orientated business people. Give
the union 72 hours to accept a new contract which simply states: "You can
quit at any time, you will have a job if you stay in so long as this plant
makes money in the month, every month. We reserve the right to close
without notice. We now pay 1/2 (or less) of prior rates. Severance is
not an option.".

4) Fire ALL senior executives including the CEO and board. A board member
may stay provided they own more than 5% of the company in common stock or
preferred shares. Otherwise they pack, no severance.

5) Liquidate excess inventory, fire sale. Raise cash to pay creditors in
order.

6) Pension and other benefits, now a union issue.

7) New HR policies, no show, slackers, poor quality gets you fired. If
union resists, close the facility.

8) Reorganize debt. Common shares, preferred shares and bond holders are
likely out.

9) Anyone getting in the way, or hindering 1-8 above is in contempt of
court. Set the hearing date and fire them.

Problem solved. Lean and mean. Run it by the books for a year or two,
then put it back on the market. Probably go for $100 share.

I think I mean take control of the company.


I like your style. I don't think I want to work for you though ... :-)

Eisboch

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.

GM and particularly Ford are making decent headway in some of their newer
model introductions.
Some of GM's products are rated as highly as anything from Toyota or higher
in terms of quality and frequency of problems. Same with some of the new
Ford products who also has been recognized as the leader of the American
manufacturers in terms of actively revising their product line and getting
with the program.

This does not include many of the older models and trucks that are slowly
being phased out.

Eisboch

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.

GM and particularly Ford are making decent headway in some of their newer
model introductions.
Some of GM's products are rated as highly as anything from Toyota or
higher in terms of quality and frequency of problems. Same with some of
the new Ford products who also has been recognized as the leader of the
American manufacturers in terms of actively revising their product line
and getting with the program.

This does not include many of the older models and trucks that are slowly
being phased out.

Eisboch


And you look at most of the new Toyota's, Nissan's and they have also gotten
bigger. Rather amazing, when you look at a 1955 Chevy, or even a 1964 GTO
and see how much smaller than the cars of the last bunch of years. And the
quality has come up a lot. My 2004 Chevy has been a great truck, for 90k
miles. They did change a front hub at about 70k, but that may be because I
forgot to take out of 4x4 and towed a couple hundred miles at freeway
speeds.
And how can the union not share the fault? They got a seat on the Chrysler
Board of Directors in the 1980's.