On Nov 14, 4:04*pm, Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:03:32 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. *Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. *They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. *The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. *No bailouts for
Bull****.

Unions and labor costs are not the problem, and never have been. Non
union made toyotas and Hondas sell in greater numbers, despite being
considerable MORE expensive.
Right! Hondas and Toyotas are the problem. Quality is the problem.
Them scab non union workers is the problem. Ain't no union problems.
Boy, that's a relief.

BTW A billion dollars or so is going up in smoke around *8PM
tonight. Hope yall is watchin.

Life after the Navy, where you did not excel, must have been a hell
of a letdown for you, FloridaJim. I've never seen anyone here work
harder at being an idiot. Yes, yes, I know about Loogy and Just Wait,
but they don't have to work at it.

You're not that far from the Northeast Florida State Hospital at
Macclenny, right? I believe it is the one that serves your county.
You'd probably get better treatment there than at an old sailor's
home. Once you are Baker-acted, I'm sure you could get in there.

Has Harry turned a bit more sour than usual? It is amazing that his
candidate or party has won and he isn't jumping for joy in the streets..

It's interesting that neither you nor Florida Jim have boats. What are
you doing here?

Apparently we are bothering you something terrible. Ask your shrink how
to deal with it. You did make the appointment to see the lady at the
bricklayers union, didn't you?

Talking sense, unlike those dregs you tracked in here from
alt.machines.cnc, alt.usenet.kooks, misc.survivalism,
rec.crafts.metalworking, and the like.

Of course they are fitting of your ilk. a most pathetic lot you
carouse with.

Indeed.

On Nov 14, 5:24*pm, Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
Boater wrote:
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote:
Jim wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:03:32 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. *Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. *They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas
prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. *The unions
priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term
thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. *No bailouts for
Bull****.

Unions and labor costs are not the problem, and never have been. Non
union made toyotas and Hondas sell in greater numbers, despite being
considerable MORE expensive.
Right! Hondas and Toyotas are the problem. Quality is the problem.
Them scab non union workers is the problem. Ain't no union
problems. Boy, that's a relief.

BTW A billion dollars or so is going up in smoke around *8PM
tonight. Hope yall is watchin.

Life after the Navy, where you did not excel, must have been a hell
of a letdown for you, FloridaJim. I've never seen anyone here work
harder at being an idiot. Yes, yes, I know about Loogy and Just
Wait, but they don't have to work at it.

You're not that far from the Northeast Florida State Hospital at
Macclenny, right? I believe it is the one that serves your county.
You'd probably get better treatment there than at an old sailor's
home. Once you are Baker-acted, I'm sure you could get in there.

Has Harry turned a bit more sour than usual? It is amazing that his
candidate or party has won and he isn't jumping for joy in the streets.

It's interesting that neither you nor Florida Jim have boats. What are
you doing here?

Apparently we are bothering you something terrible. Ask your shrink how
to deal with it. You did make the appointment to see the lady at the
bricklayers union, didn't you?

You seem to be obsessed with my wife. She's in the middle of setting up
a substantial research project right now. Maybe you could be a subject.

Would that research happen to be carrying on the work of Dr. Walter J.
Freeman? And if so, did she experiment on you first?

I thought so.

"Frogwatch" wrote in message
...
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.

Yep, well put. GM, Government Motors in the new USSR (United States
Socialist Republic).

I figure nationalizing the stock market comes after the banks and auto
consolidation quiets down.

But it will not get that far. If the government bails out GM, this is going
to be one very long depression as every loser company in the world is going
to be looking for government handouts. Maybe China will be importing from
the USA in 10 years when the US economy dwindles to that of a third world
nation because of debt and government fiscal mismanagement.

Who is going to buy a Government Motors vehicle anyway? With cash they
don't have or more government sponsored cheap credit they are not qualified
for? And that assumes people want GM crap.

And we wonder why the world has a liquidity problem....print money and
charge it.

My guess is before February the dem congress is going to float a 5 trillion
dollar government bank program. Where the bank **is** the government with
unlimited leverage to loan money at 1%..

On Nov 14, 3:43*pm, Frogwatch wrote:
On Nov 14, 4:38 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:



"Don White" wrote in message

.. .

Grossly overpaid incompetent management. *Unbelieveable the compensation
packages they receive while the industry heads for the dumpster.

Maybe. *But they are under a contract to be paid it, just like the members
of the UAW employees.

As horrifying and ridiculous as it is, it only becomes an issue when times
are tough. *When GM was making money hand over fist, nobody cared what the
top management made. * That's also when the employment contracts were
written.

I am not saying it's right. *It's just a matter of fact. * In good times the
shareholders want the best management their money can buy to maximize their
return on investment. * In bad times they just want good management.

Eisboch

Here is an interesting set of stats from TCS daily:

"Here's a stat from my friend, blogger Mark Perry: Total compensation
per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20.

I would say that the posted rate is more than generous. Bloody well
more than generous.

"BAR" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:03:32 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.

Unions and labor costs are not the problem, and never have been. Non
union made toyotas and Hondas sell in greater numbers, despite being
considerable MORE expensive.

GM vehicles are crap. Honda's and Toyota's are good quality vehicles. GM
cannot put the effort, money, into quality due to the costs they have to
pay for union labor and union benefits.

Actually I blame both managemnt and the union.

Management was too stupid to let it happen.

Unuion, not my job to make this company sucessful.

Take your pick. 30+ years of customer and shareholder abuse should come to
an end. Someone will buy the plants and rehire real workers when the need
arrises.

What is the GM (Government Motors) going to do with all these cars no one
wants or can afford?

People do not have a problem paying a bit more for quality. My parents
bought GM vehicles. When I saw what piles of crap they were I decided to
never buy one. My dad did buy a Datsun 1200 Sedan back in '72, damn thing
ran for ever. Had to keep riveting the body back together but the
mechanicals of that car were great. It had more than 250,000 miles on it
when the guy finally towed it away, it was still running too.

I hear you on this. But found Ford to be better than GM or Chrysler.

"Boater" wrote in message
...
BAR wrote:
Boater wrote:
BAR wrote:
wrote:
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:03:32 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.

Unions and labor costs are not the problem, and never have been. Non
union made toyotas and Hondas sell in greater numbers, despite being
considerable MORE expensive.

GM vehicles are crap. Honda's and Toyota's are good quality vehicles.
GM cannot put the effort, money, into quality due to the costs they
have to pay for union labor and union benefits.


Yep...you are indeed simple-minded.

You are always looking at the problem from the labor perspective and
immediately assign blame to management. You are the simple-minded idiot.

You need to look at it from all angles and find the cause of the problem.

Corporations are run by management, not by the workers. Lately, management
has been incompetent. It's that simple.

Lately?

GM has been bleeding money for a generation.

Anyone thinks that they can turn them around now must be totally delusional.

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"Don White" wrote in message
...



Grossly overpaid incompetent management. Unbelieveable the compensation
packages they receive while the industry heads for the dumpster.


Maybe. But they are under a contract to be paid it, just like the members
of the UAW employees.

As horrifying and ridiculous as it is, it only becomes an issue when times
are tough. When GM was making money hand over fist, nobody cared what the
top management made. That's also when the employment contracts were
written.

I am not saying it's right. It's just a matter of fact. In good times
the shareholders want the best management their money can buy to maximize
their return on investment. In bad times they just want good management.

Eisboch

GM will eventually become a case where there is a weakness in the current
system. Shareholders have been crying for decades to get the board off
their asses and get decent management. None came. Union rot and apathy
spilled into management and down the toilet they go. When was the last time
GM actually made money, I mean net in a whole year including write-downs?

"tin cup" wrote in message
...
Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.

Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

On Nov 14, 6:50*pm, "Canuck57" wrote:
"tin cup" wrote in message

...



Frogwatch wrote:
The Dems want to give 25 Billion to their friends at GM while GM
builds the worst sorta crap I have ever seen. *Their unions and
management deserve to fail for giving us such garbage. *They have
designed the worst sort of vehicles that nobody wants when gas prices
are high and their quality is still on the bottom. *The unions priced
themselves out of work and the management allowed short term thinking
that produced the gas hogs they cannot give away. *No bailouts for
Bull****.
The Unions didn't do squat.
The bean counters and Wall Street's demand for maximum spread and gambling
did them in along with the rest of us.
How come you idiots keep blaming American workers whether they are in a
union or not. Obviously you are running a quicker mart or whatever and
paying your wage slaves 7.50 an hour no benefits and fire them before 6
mos.

Now we know why some have a tin cup and others have a gold cup.

Wall Street just prices the company to fair market value. *If GM made a
profit, a real total bottom line net profit in the last 30 years they would
be debt free, had a 1/2 dozen stock splits and the company would be solid
like a rock.

But unions picked the company apart and management let it happen and the
board members didn't do a damn thing.

I do remember back in the mid 1970's. It seemed that the UAW would
strike and picket GM at the drop of a hat. What for? Higher wages, of
course! Then came the cars that were one third the size of the
earlier part of the 70's, with even more shoddy material and
workmanship, and cost about one third more than the larger machines of
the earlier portion of the same decade.

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 13:43:34 -0800 (PST), Frogwatch
wrote:

On Nov 14, 4:38 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message

...



Grossly overpaid incompetent management. Unbelieveable the compensation
packages they receive while the industry heads for the dumpster.

Maybe. But they are under a contract to be paid it, just like the members
of the UAW employees.

As horrifying and ridiculous as it is, it only becomes an issue when times
are tough. When GM was making money hand over fist, nobody cared what the
top management made. That's also when the employment contracts were
written.

I am not saying it's right. It's just a matter of fact. In good times the
shareholders want the best management their money can buy to maximize their
return on investment. In bad times they just want good management.

Eisboch

Here is an interesting set of stats from TCS daily:

"Here's a stat from my friend, blogger Mark Perry: Total compensation
per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20. That's a 52 percent
differential from Toyota's (Detroit South) $48 compensation (wages +
health and retirement benefits). In fact, the oversized UAW-driven pay
package for Detroit is 132 percent higher than that of the entire
manufacturing sector of the U.S., which comes in at $31.59."

So, the Dems want to bail out this bloated dinosaur?

My kid is a union electrician, and he is pretty good at it, for thirty
bucks an hour.

Casady