On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:23:29 -0500, DSK wrote:


And it's important, in a boat like that, to be able to take a severe
tossing, because you'll be in mid-ocean long enough to guarantee that
you'll get one. Except for consistent downwind routes, they have a hard
time making passages. Ask some of the transPac guys how the Westsail 32s
get back from Hawaii... or from Cabo...

Well, yes, that's a major trade-off. Of course, Moitessier solved that
problem in the '60s...just keep going until you arrive back where you
started! Seriously, though, current thought (when one can discern it
among all the floating rec rooms at boat shows) seems to be that
faster is better to avoid the rough stuff in the first place, which
means good upwind performance. The "best world cruisers" is great for
a good BS session online, but even marginal boats in good hands can
sail pretty impressively...and some nice boats in good shape have been
found adrift because of panicky crew or idiot captains ****ing over
the side....



So, you're advocating going back to the horse and buggy?

Not at all, but some of those boats had desirable characteristics
absent from MOST...not all, thank goodness...of the current crop.
That's why there's such a steady trade in old Perry designs and Brewer
semi-customs and so on...they combine best of old and new-ish.

Seriously, I've read all that and also sailed some of those boats. If
you want an escape from modern life, it's great... you always have Motel
6 to fall back on (which those guys did not). I think that some of the
characteristics of these boats are very good at sea... a kindly motion,
for example, a *secure* cabin, inviolable structural integrity (which
actually those boats didn't have, but failures tended to be in small
bits that were easily repairable with on-board parts & tools). They also
broke out the champagne any time they had a 100-mile 24 hr run.

Well, I am of the opinion that sailboats stink as transport
devices...unless you have nothing resembling a schedule, at which
point they are the best way to travel anywhere there's seven feet of
water. If my (to be hoped for) cruising life contains anything more
pressing than "get to typhoon hole in four months" as a Post-It on the
nav station, I will have not achieved my goals in life. So bring on
the North Sea sailing barges G...ok, maybe not THAT bulletproof....


We were looking more for a given range of cubic & displacement, rather
than an LOA range. And what's wrong with complex mechanical aids? A
windlass and a self-tailing winch are both *great* ways to handle
strains than muscle alone will not.... faster and with more control than
a handy-billy.

I don't consider those complex as I could devise the same mech.
advantage with a strong point and a series of blocks and falls. I
consider ELECTRIC winches, certain forms of autopilot, air
conditioning, large refrigeration set-ups and satellite TV receivers
to fall under "complex mechanical aids" in the sense that it's
unnecessary, too big a draw, too likely to break or too expensive to
maintain. A sturdy windvane AND a better sort of autopilot, preferably
cable or rod linkages over hydraulic, would provide the sort of
redundancy I would prefer. Then, self-steering by sail trim and bungee
cords is the "Hail Mary" of self-steering..essential I think to safe
passagemaking.

Neither are prohibitively expensive (especially if they
come with the boat 2nd-hand) and neither take prohibitive mainenance
IMHO. I don't want to accuse you of being a Luddite but it seems you're
leaning that way... certainly simpler is better, the question is to make
a good choice of systems to include and recognizing their true cost.

With that I will agree, but fewer things to break is a simple credo. I
am not a Luddite in many senses, actually, because while I am suspect
of devices listed above, it will be crucial to living aboard for years
that I have complex SSB/weatherfax/email/satellite comm systems,
powered by carefully shepherded battery banks and charged by
wind/sun/towed generators. Unlike many cruisers, I WILL have kids
aboard, and medical, educational and family reasons dictate that I
have a better than usual degree of connectivity. I just hope that by
the time we go, marine electronics will be a little more integrated
and at a lower price than today.

FWIW I'd agree with the split rig... it is a maintenance hit but it
offers redundancy and it keeps the main truck lower for getting under
fixed bridges. On the East Coast there are a lot of places you can't go
if your 'air draft' is more than 55 feet (16.9m).

Exactly. More bits to fall off but more options to keep sailing. Also,
it's a fudge factor for getting a bigger boat...I think in some ways a
40 foot sloop is harder for a couple to handle than a 45 foot ketch,
but both are borderline unless you are quite fit. Better, I think, to
learn to live and sail with the size of boat you can manage, which may
be quite different boats at various life points.

R.

current thought (when one can discern it
among all the floating rec rooms at boat shows) seems to be that
faster is better to avoid the rough stuff in the first place,

it is not current thought, but rather current marketing advice, marketing
advice designed to sell bigger boats at higher prices.

At base, the marketing advice states that being on the water is dangerous and
therefore one should spend as little time sailing as possible. The marketing
advice seems to suggest (in a way that is not legally culpable) that a 9 knot
boat will experience no weather at sea, while a 5 knot boat will get pounded
repeatedly. The marketing advice does not *guarantee* 9 knot passages, but
merely suggests that such *might* happen, if you buys a 55 foot, 45,000 pound,
one point five million dollar vessel, rather than a ratty, unsafe, down at the
heel 35 foot boat for one hundred grand.

most people who have actually made long passages report typical daily mileage
is about 120 miles per day, give or take 20 or 30 miles depending on the
weather any particular day.

In other words, the marketing advice is selling boats to that portion of the
markeet that is terrified of the sea and wants to get off the water as quickly
as it can. This is a much larger market than is the market to sailors who find
sailing inherantly interesting.

One of the easiet ways to tell a sailor from a scared to death sailboat buyer
is the winds at which either expresses concern. the death is just around the
corner boat buyer talks of ROUGH seas as those that really are only maybe 4 to
6 feet high (often reported to be 20 footers) with winds of 20 knots (usually
reported not all that far off). the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

t'ain't funny, MaGee. It is real.
Endangering the lives of young coasties with wives and kids back on shore just
because someone lacked the capability to head to sea but did so anyway with and
EPIRB is a serious moral offense in virtually every society in the world.

Can you spell?

E
P
I
R
B


ANYone who thinks that way is a moral cretin.

You are going to endanger the life of a young coastie with wife and kids at
home just to rescue your scummy butt because you wanted to take your boat
where
you were not qualified to take it.

kriste almighty. You should be forcefully sterilized, and your children as
well should you already have childred.

what a putz.

You're funny.

On 23 Mar 2004 12:35:48 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

===========================================

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

What did you use to remove the deck stains?

offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

I do not own a Bristol 27, though I do know someone who crossed the North
Atlantic twice in such. he also sailed in the boat out the St Lawrence down to
the Caribbean and back before his first crossing. He also set sail for the
Maritimes 1,200 miles away in a December snow storm.

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

the sailor who likes sailing is casual of
rough weather and if pressed merely says something about 50 knot winds and
building that made it hard to heat up the soup.

===========================================

Jax, I think we'd all enjoy hearing about some of the exciting
offshore passages that you've made in 50 kt winds on your Bristol 27.

What did you use to remove the deck stains?

On 23 Mar 2004 19:35:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

Well, it is....It's also foolish to bungee jump, use the black slope
while skiing or drive 150 Mph with a motorbike....


Cheers!


Remco

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 08:09:55 GMT, (Remco
Moedt) wrote:
On 23 Mar 2004 19:35:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.

Well, it is....It's also foolish to bungee jump, use the black slope
while skiing or drive 150 Mph with a motorbike....

======================================

20 kt winds are par for the course in some locales and are frequently
encountered offshore, sometimes for days at a time. No big problem
for the right boat and the right crew, but I can tell you from
personal experience that going to weather in 20 kts gets real old and
tiresome after a few days in any boat I've sailed that was under 50
feet long.

"Wayne.B" wrote:
I can tell you from
personal experience that going to weather in 20 kts gets real old and
tiresome after a few days in any boat I've sailed that was under 50
feet long.

Or over 50 feet. Spent nine days this fall beating into 20 knots from the DR
to BVI on a 120' schooner. That wore everybody down.

Carl

In article ,
(JAXAshby) wrote:

wayne, I personally know a guy who believes it is foolish to sail in winds
above 20 knots.


Some people, sailing in 20 knot winds, ARE foolish -- and dangerous.

(nothing personal to anyone, I'm thinking of some in the BVI)

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/