Bob Whitaker wrote:
And the fact that it's a "marketing term" makes it acceptable to be
rude to anyone who uses the term, right?

Oh grow up.

Fresh Breezes
Doug King

Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

Oh grow up.


There you go, Ladies and Gentlemen, Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" in
his own words. All he had to say is: "--Yes Bob, you are right. I was
just trying to be funny. I'm sorry I was rude." That's all he needed
to say Ladies and Gentlemen. But, instead, when coming face to face
with his rude behavior his response is: "--Grow up." I wonder who's
the one that needs to do some growing up around here? That's too bad,
Doug, as we were really rooting for you on the sidelines. We were
really hoping you were truly different from the riff-raff you are so
fond of pontificating against. I guess you have shown your true mettle
(or lack thereof).

Fresh Toilets- Bob Whitaker

"Disinfecting the world, one toilet at a time... but I guess there's
some outhouses that are just festering cesspools and should be filled
in rather than disinfected."


DSK wrote in message ...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
And the fact that it's a "marketing term" makes it acceptable to be
rude to anyone who uses the term, right?

Oh grow up.

Fresh Breezes
Doug King

Bob Whitaker wrote:
There you go, Ladies and Gentlemen, Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" in
his own words.

In your own words, you seem to be obsessed with toilets.


... All he had to say is: "--Yes Bob, you are right. I was
just trying to be funny. I'm sorry I was rude."

But I have no need or desire to apologize. If I was rude, it was rather
mild. Your reaction has been on a scale with BittyBill and Jax... both
of whom are buffoons. Do I care about their opinions? Should I care
about yours?

In your first post, you displayed a number of prejudices regarding
offshore sailing, and that you weren't really interested in advice
unless it was either agreed with your prejudices or was offered ever so
humbley.

I *did* offer some good advice, although without any apology whatever
for disagreeing with your prejudices. You got all ****y because I popped
your balloon. Life is tough sometimes.

DSK

dougies tells one and all:

I have no need or desire to apologize

and explains thusly:

I was rude, it was rather
mild.

and continues:

Should I care
about yours (opinion)?


DSK

Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

But I have no need or desire to apologize.

Need, my dear friend, yes. Desire? It has been well established you
don't.

In your first post, you displayed [...] that you
weren't really interested in advice

Is that so? Then why would I post a question in the first place? Maybe
you've forgotten my first post. Why don't you re-read it. Why on earth
would I say: "--What other boats do folks recommend?" if I wasn't
really interested in their advice? I'm sorry but it's just too easy to
pick your arguments apart Doug

I *did* offer some good advice,

Yes, you did offer _SOME_ advice. I'll grant you that. For those who
may not have seen the first post, I show Doug's "good" advice below:

On a message dated: 2004-03-12 08:31:43 PST Doug "The Fresh Toilet
King" wrote:

My first advice is to drop the phrase "blue water cruiser."
It makes you sound like you want to be the Tidy Bowl man.


By his own account Doug King is a bit confused and thinks that people
who use the term "blue water" are talking about toilet disinfectants.
As stated earlier he probably thinks that the term "green water"
refers to the competing brand. Who knows what he thinks when he hears
the term getting "pooped".

I'm sorry Doug, but you are just too easy a target. You were rude.
Admit it. In your own words you said: "--If I was rude, it was rather
mild." And I will grant you that as well. It was rather mild and it
was rather entertaining at that. But rude nonetheless.

You got all ****y because I popped
your balloon.

Wrong, again! I'm rather entertained by the whole brouhaha. Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging. It seems like you are the one getting all ****y because
somebody has called your bluff.

Since we are offering each other advice, here's some advice for you:
My advice is for you to stick to sailing in your posts. You are smart,
knowledgeable and experienced. People could benefit from what you have
to say, instead of just dismissing posts signed by "DSK". Try to let
people come to respect your opinion by the quality of your posts and
don't try to get snotty with strangers. The world would be a better
place for it.

Fresh Toilets- Bob Whitaker



DSK wrote in message ...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
There you go, Ladies and Gentlemen, Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" in
his own words.

In your own words, you seem to be obsessed with toilets.


... All he had to say is: "--Yes Bob, you are right. I was
just trying to be funny. I'm sorry I was rude."

But I have no need or desire to apologize. If I was rude, it was rather
mild. Your reaction has been on a scale with BittyBill and Jax... both
of whom are buffoons. Do I care about their opinions? Should I care
about yours?

In your first post, you displayed a number of prejudices regarding
offshore sailing, and that you weren't really interested in advice
unless it was either agreed with your prejudices or was offered ever so
humbley.

I *did* offer some good advice, although without any apology whatever
for disagreeing with your prejudices. You got all ****y because I popped
your balloon. Life is tough sometimes.

DSK

Bob Whitaker wrote:
... Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing? It seems to take a back
seat to kindergarten squabbling.

DSK

Hello Doug,

How are you doing? Nice to hear from you again. I had a fantastic
weekend, how about yourself? I came back to many interesting posts,
and amongst them I found yours:

Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

kindergarten squabbling

Kindergarten? This is very amusing even if it's getting really
tiresome to correct your mistakes time after time. Here is the
evidence: I posted a question about sailing and you replied with
references to toilets. Now, who's the one reverting to Kindergarten
behavior? The evidence is there, Doug, indexed by Google for
posterity.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

You are correct, I was repeating myself. Wasn't sure you had seen it
the first time around.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

That is very funny Doug... Now it is you who are repeating yourself,
thus you have just defeated yourself by your own yardstick

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing?

Well, since you ask, it's hard to say exactly, something about the
books I read as a kid and the fact that I've been close to sailboats
all my life. There's many reasons why I am interested in sailing,
Doug, but instead of elaborating, can you please tell us again why
_YOU_ are interested in being rude to other group members? Even if
it's "mildly" rude as you admitted yourself? I know that most
newsgroups have a few insecure individuals who try to bolster their
weak egos by trying to belittle others. That may not be your case, but
I am really curious. Can you please elaborate on your true motivation?

By the way, I will repeat myself once more so pay close attention. I
will assume that overall you are a decent human being. I will assume
you regret your snotty opening post. I will assume that you have
learned your lesson. I will assume your rude behavior was a knee jerk
reaction, brought about by years of infighting on Usenet. Furthermore
I will assume that this newsgroup is now a slightly better place
because you will be a little less likely to be rude to strangers in
the future. I have done my part. I called your bluff and so far you
have shown a pretty weak hand.

Consider the wonderful information being shared by members such as
Frank and Wayne to name a few. That is the true spirit of Usenet
coming forth. Many thanks to them and the rest.

Bob Whitaker

P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? I'm going to
ask Frank this same question, but I welcome participation from all.
Also, nice pictures of you and your wife flying the spinnaker on the
Jn-18. And by the way, I'm still curious about what you think of Cape
Dorys.




DSK wrote in message t...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
... Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing? It seems to take a back
seat to kindergarten squabbling.

DSK

(Bob Whitaker) asked:
....snip...
P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?
....snip...

Well, you've perhaps already guessed my response. grin

Frank's Rig Rant
aka My Opinion and Welcome to It

KETCHES

I have a coupla years of ownership of, and a decent amount of offshore miles
on, ketches (the one I owned and, later, my father-in-law's). Like many of
the other boat types I've spurned in this thread, I find them lovely to look
at, elegant in repose, nautical in presentation, and pretty much a slow
pain-in-the-ass as a sailboat on all but a couple of points of sail. Allow
me to rant against ketches for a bit.

Their defenders claim many advantages to this rig: two masts for redundancy
in case of a dismasting; split sailplan gives easier sail handling; multiple
masts and the various types of sails they support allow unparalleled ability
to match your canvas to conditions; ...have I forgotten anything?

So, my response is:

Split sail plans make sail handling easier. Sure, in 1904, when some poor
sucker had to go below, carry up a heavy, wet canvas sail, hank it on, then
haul it up the wooden mast with a hemp rope using primitive types of
mechanical advantage. But this is 2004. Who nowadays does not have a roller
furling jib? Hell! Even some racers have 'em. You no longer hafta change
headsails for every 5 knots of wind. And as for difficulties in hauling
halyards... if you're experiencing exasperation, buy bigger Barients. I see
lots of traditional cruisers with POWERED winches. Come on, this is not a
realistic factor. In my experience, split sailplans simply add to your
workload. Not that big a deal in mild conditions; but we all seem to love to
talk about "heavy weather" and 'big seas." Me, I'm lazy. I want my life to
be easy in easy conditions and I *need* my life to be easy in complicated
conditions. When a squall comes up, the sloop reels in a couple reefs on the
main with his single-line reefing, rolls in the jib some, and he's ready. Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself. The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition. I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

Well, actually I'm gonna make two exceptions to my general rant here. I
would endorse the Freedom cat-ketches; plus, there's a Freedom cat-schooner
(I don't know what else you'd call the Freedom 39), which I'd endorse. Of
course, these rigs are pretty alien to a "normal" ketch or schooner; so it's
really a case of apples and oranges.

CUTTERS

My simplest response is that I don't see any realistic benefit to a cutter
over a sloop, just expensive, unnecessary complications. People talk about
"balancing the rig" and all that kinda mystical sail trim stuff; but IMO if
you have a well designed sloop (and I grant that that's a measurable "if"),
you can balance just as easily. No, make that *easier* 'cause you only have
two sails to deal with rather than three. And on those *occasional*days when
you're not in survival weather, you avoid the complications of additional
rigging and sails. Think having to walk the jib around when you tack. Now
think about doing that in heavy seas. You gonna do it or you gonna send your
wife forward? Parenthetically, cutters sometimes (often) push the jib out
onto a bowsprit. Ick! Ick! Ick! Bowsprits are another one of those things
which I like to look at on other people's boats; but damned if I want one.
The sea is an unforgiving environment. Why give it an easy way to destroy
your rig and tear holes in your boat?

SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

And that's my $.02 on *that* one. wink

Frank

Bob, keep in mind that dougies got to be too old to sail his Nimrod 19.

Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

Oh grow up.


There you go, Ladies and Gentlemen, Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" in
his own words. All he had to say is: "--Yes Bob, you are right. I was
just trying to be funny. I'm sorry I was rude." That's all he needed
to say Ladies and Gentlemen. But, instead, when coming face to face
with his rude behavior his response is: "--Grow up." I wonder who's
the one that needs to do some growing up around here? That's too bad,
Doug, as we were really rooting for you on the sidelines. We were
really hoping you were truly different from the riff-raff you are so
fond of pontificating against. I guess you have shown your true mettle
(or lack thereof).

Fresh Toilets- Bob Whitaker

"Disinfecting the world, one toilet at a time... but I guess there's
some outhouses that are just festering cesspools and should be filled
in rather than disinfected."


DSK wrote in message
t...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
And the fact that it's a "marketing term" makes it acceptable to be
rude to anyone who uses the term, right?

Oh grow up.

Fresh Breezes
Doug King

Cripes Bob, give it a rest all ready. You sound like a big baby.

Jax

(Bob Whitaker) wrote in message . com...
Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

Oh grow up.


There you go, Ladies and Gentlemen, Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" in
his own words. All he had to say is: "--Yes Bob, you are right. I was
just trying to be funny. I'm sorry I was rude." That's all he needed
to say Ladies and Gentlemen. But, instead, when coming face to face
with his rude behavior his response is: "--Grow up." I wonder who's
the one that needs to do some growing up around here? That's too bad,
Doug, as we were really rooting for you on the sidelines. We were
really hoping you were truly different from the riff-raff you are so
fond of pontificating against. I guess you have shown your true mettle
(or lack thereof).

Fresh Toilets- Bob Whitaker