"Larry" wrote in message
...
L D'Bonnie wrote in news:47f3f083$0$517$6c5eefc5
@news.maximumusenet.com:

My boat is a 21 foot weekender. I'm not
concerned with sinking,

A recipe for disaster. Without a survival suit for every person aboard,
you won't last 15 minutes, maybe not 10.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/integrity/
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...p?id=421&mc=13

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/resou...icles/hypother
mia/index.php

"THE 4 CRITICAL PHASES OF COLD-WATER IMMERSION

I. First 5 minutes - Immediate Shock
The subject experiences the gasp reflex – the sudden gasp of air as
result of the shock, the inability to hold breath, hypertension and
increased cardiac output. Most casualties in this phase succumb to
drowning or heart attack before hypothermia can even begin to set to in.

II. Next 15 minutes – Inhalation of Water
The subject fails to keep afloat or swim and has little ability to grasp
or climb into things such as overturned vessels or life rafts.
Typically, these individuals drown due to excessive inhalation of water.

III. 30 minutes - Onset of hypothermia
Stages of Hypothermia:
37° C is considered normal body core temperature. When core temperature
drops to 36.1° C, muscle tone becomes affected. Most people have
experienced this feeling of tension in their back and neck when they’ve
become chilled. At a core temperature of 35° C, one is considered mildly
hypothermic. Most immersion experiments with human test subjects are
terminated at this point for ethical reasons. At a core temperature of
33.9° C, subjects experience amnesia, but of course don’t remember it!
Another 1.1° C drop down to 32.8° C; apathy that is a lack of sensation
or feeling can be experienced.

At 32.2° C one is considered profoundly hypothermic and starts to lose
the ability to shiver. At 31.1° C, shivering ceases. Shivering is a
human’s only method of increasing their internal heat generation, thus
once it stops, and core temperature starts falling rapidly. At 30° C,
heart arrhythmias occur. Death follows at 25° C; however the majority of
people would have drowned before ever getting to this point.

IV. 30 minutes – Risk of Re-warming Shock after Rescue
Upon removal from the water, there is a continued drop in a subject’s
core temperature and a collapse of arterial pressure due to hydrostatic
squeeze. Extreme care and proper re-warming procedures must be followed
to effectively attend to the subject.

HOW CAN HYPOTHERMIA BE PREVENTED ?
In-water Tactics
When you’re in cold water, don’t swim unless you can reach a nearby
boat, fellow survivor or floating object. Even good swimmers drown while
swimming in cold water. Swimming lowers your body temperature.

If a nearby floating object is large, pull yourself up onto it. The more
of your body that is out of the water, the warmer you’ll be. Don’t use
drownproofing methods that call for putting your face into the water.
Keep your head out of the water to lessen heat loss and increase
survival time.

Use of the HELP position will lessen heat loss. If there are others in
the water, HUDDLE together for warmth. Keep a positive outlook; it will
improve your chances of survival.

Always wear your PFD. Even if you become helpless from hypothermia, your
PFD will keep you afloat."

The difference is they find a cold, dead body floating in his
PFD.....or, they find a barely alive cold body floating in his
rudimentary survival suit that saved his ass....Your choice.

It CAN happen to YOU....


I do not like sailing when the weather is cold I rather be inside.
However if I have to, excluding extreme weather, for cold weather sailing I
wear the following:
I am more comfortable with natural fibbers.
As for base layer (underwear) I like a blend of silk and wool for the top
and bottom see
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...wear&noImage=0
On top of the underwear I prefer a pure natural virgin wool sweater like the
Guernsey or better.
see http://www.channeljumper.com/?gclid=...FQmNHgodEl-aXw
For the final layer I use a breathable and waterproof (not repellent) ski
jacket with a high collar and hood and matching downhill pants.
As heat is lost at the extremities I wear a good pairs of waterproof and
breathable insulated ski gloves with appropriate headgear. For my feet I
wear a good pair of Smartwool socks see
http://www.bluerivertrading.com/smartwool.asp#
If its raining very hard I switch to breathable raingear. In case we have a
white out (heavy snow) my wife and I always carry out down hill ski goggles
on board.

wrote in
:

I do not like sailing when the weather is cold I rather be inside.
However if I have to, excluding extreme weather, for cold weather
sailing I


That doesn't really matter. You can die of hypothermia right off the
Southeast coast, right here in Charleston...for a good part of the year.

Look at the core temps and effects of them. If you get down to under 90F,
you're in serious trouble....The water sucks it right out of you.

In article ,
Larry wrote:

A recipe for disaster. Without a survival suit for every person aboard,
you won't last 15 minutes, maybe not 10.

See http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/TP/TP13822/menu.htm for details.

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

On Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:12:16 +0000, Larry wrote:

L D'Bonnie wrote in news:47f3f083$0$517$6c5eefc5
:

My boat is a 21 foot weekender. I'm not
concerned with sinking,

A recipe for disaster. Without a survival suit for every person aboard,
you won't last 15 minutes, maybe not 10.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/integrity/
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/produ...p?id=421&mc=13

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/resou...icles/hypother
mia/index.php

"THE 4 CRITICAL PHASES OF COLD-WATER IMMERSION

I. First 5 minutes - Immediate Shock
The subject experiences the gasp reflex – the sudden gasp of air as
result of the shock, the inability to hold breath, hypertension and
increased cardiac output. Most casualties in this phase succumb to
drowning or heart attack before hypothermia can even begin to set to in.

II. Next 15 minutes – Inhalation of Water
The subject fails to keep afloat or swim and has little ability to grasp
or climb into things such as overturned vessels or life rafts.
Typically, these individuals drown due to excessive inhalation of water.

III. 30 minutes - Onset of hypothermia
Stages of Hypothermia:
37° C is considered normal body core temperature. When core temperature
drops to 36.1° C, muscle tone becomes affected. Most people have
experienced this feeling of tension in their back and neck when they’ve
become chilled. At a core temperature of 35° C, one is considered mildly
hypothermic. Most immersion experiments with human test subjects are
terminated at this point for ethical reasons. At a core temperature of
33.9° C, subjects experience amnesia, but of course don’t remember it!
Another 1.1° C drop down to 32.8° C; apathy that is a lack of sensation
or feeling can be experienced.

At 32.2° C one is considered profoundly hypothermic and starts to lose
the ability to shiver. At 31.1° C, shivering ceases. Shivering is a
human’s only method of increasing their internal heat generation, thus
once it stops, and core temperature starts falling rapidly. At 30° C,
heart arrhythmias occur. Death follows at 25° C; however the majority of
people would have drowned before ever getting to this point.

IV. 30 minutes – Risk of Re-warming Shock after Rescue
Upon removal from the water, there is a continued drop in a subject’s
core temperature and a collapse of arterial pressure due to hydrostatic
squeeze. Extreme care and proper re-warming procedures must be followed
to effectively attend to the subject.

HOW CAN HYPOTHERMIA BE PREVENTED ?
In-water Tactics
When you’re in cold water, don’t swim unless you can reach a nearby
boat, fellow survivor or floating object. Even good swimmers drown while
swimming in cold water. Swimming lowers your body temperature.

If a nearby floating object is large, pull yourself up onto it. The more
of your body that is out of the water, the warmer you’ll be. Don’t use
drownproofing methods that call for putting your face into the water.
Keep your head out of the water to lessen heat loss and increase
survival time.

Use of the HELP position will lessen heat loss. If there are others in
the water, HUDDLE together for warmth. Keep a positive outlook; it will
improve your chances of survival.

Always wear your PFD. Even if you become helpless from hypothermia, your
PFD will keep you afloat."

The difference is they find a cold, dead body floating in his
PFD.....or, they find a barely alive cold body floating in his
rudimentary survival suit that saved his ass....Your choice.

It CAN happen to YOU....


In essence if you go over the side and are not retrieved fairly
quickly you probably will die.

Even in tropical waters the water is usually cooler then body
temperature so it just takes a little longer.




Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

wrote in message
...
On Apr 2, 10:56 am, L D'Bonnie wrote:
http://www.pineapplesails.com/musto/...1647jacket.htm

That's a lot of money. I really like the Gill line and I recently
retired my old (ca 1990) west marine 3rd reef pvc stuff (mostly
packing tape) in favor of Gill. I'm hard pressed to see that the
Musto coat is twice as much jacket as the penultimate Gill coat
(Atlantic) but it is twice the price. In the ocean in temps down into
the 50's the Gill Key West line is adequate as a top layer. I've got a
buddy who swears by the Stearns work suit for cold weather work on the
ocean. However, my guess is that you are looking at day sailing for a
couple of hours in fair weather and as long as you don't fall in I
can't really see spending a lot of money on a jacket thats designed to
keep you dry when you're getting hammered by ocean waves. I think
something along the lines of the Key West stuff would be fine as a
shell if you want to be yachty but a good outer-layer from someplace
like www.campmor.com or www.basgear.com (shop around) would likely be
just as good and cheaper and they carry all the underlayering you'll
be wanting. www.defender.com is a decent place to start if you are
interested in the Gill or Sterns. Get lots of layers. Oh, yeah, it's
hard to find gloves that keep you warm and allow you to handle lines.
I used some shooter's gloves that have short fingers but a mitten like
top that you can pull over you fingertips when you aren't using them
on my last trip to New Zealand. They were ok for modestly cool
weather but for real winter weather you might try neoprene sailing
gloves.

-- Tom.

Douglas Gill was a lace manufacturer who loved sailing and eventually turned
part of his factory over to manufacturing sailing clothing. I believe he
kept on manufacturing lace, but astute marketing grew the sailing gear side
of the buisiness until it was his main product.

I was also involved in the manufacture of waterproof clothing, mainly for
the North Sea oil rigs, so I do know a little about the finer points of
quality and value in this field. The main diference between our stuff and
sailing clothing was that ours had also to be fire-retardant, and price was
not an issue (after the Piper Alpha disaster that is!)

As a lifelong amateur sailor, I have examined most of the better-known makes
of foul weather gear over the years and can tell you that Gill sailing gear
is second to none in terms of value for money and quality of manufacture. It
would be wouldn't it? If the boss sails, he must be aware of the problems we
all face!

No doubt much of the present stuff on the market emanates from the
developing countries like China, indeed I would be surprised if the Gill
organisation had not availed itself of the cheaper manufacturing facilities
in these areas, but whilst admitting that I have not personally bought foul
weather gear for a few years now, Gill would still be the first clothing I
would look at before comparing prices and quality with the rest.

Hope this helps.

Dennis.

"Larry" wrote in message
...
wrote in
:

I do not like sailing when the weather is cold I rather be inside.
However if I have to, excluding extreme weather, for cold weather
sailing I


That doesn't really matter. You can die of hypothermia right off the
Southeast coast, right here in Charleston...for a good part of the year.

Look at the core temps and effects of them. If you get down to under 90F,
you're in serious trouble....The water sucks it right out of you.

I believe you Larry. When I was in the Congo one night the temperature went
down to 70F. The next morning we found people dead from hypothermia on the
side of the road. The change from 100F + down to 70F was too much of a drop
all at once.

In article ,
Marc Heusser d
wrote:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/TP/TP13822/menu.htm

From the conclusions:

....
Even a lifejacket, if not worn properly or without a spray hood, does
not guarantee the victim protection from drowning.
....
Even with rescue resources on scene when the people went into the water,
the shock of the cold water and period of time these people were in the
water proved significant in this casualty.
....
*From all the combined research on cold water accidents and scientific
research, it has become clear that sudden immersion in cold water, i.e.
below 15°C is very dangerous, it should be avoided if at all possible.
Furthermore, a conscious decision to swim (and rescue oneself) or stay
floating still in the water should not be taken lightly without
assessing the pros and cons. It has now been shown that a person¹s
swimming ability in warm water bears no relationship to that in cold
water.
....
Wherever possible, entry into water below 15°C should be avoided. Direct
entry into a life raft should be the objective.
....

So the old saying that you should never leave a boat unless it leaves
you is still the essence - and having a spare "boat".

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

"Marc Heusser" d wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Marc Heusser d
wrote:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/TP/TP13822/menu.htm

From the conclusions:

...
Even a lifejacket, if not worn properly or without a spray hood, does
not guarantee the victim protection from drowning.
...
Even with rescue resources on scene when the people went into the water,
the shock of the cold water and period of time these people were in the
water proved significant in this casualty.
...
From all the combined research on cold water accidents and scientific
research, it has become clear that sudden immersion in cold water, i.e.
below 15°C is very dangerous, it should be avoided if at all possible.
Furthermore, a conscious decision to swim (and rescue oneself) or stay
floating still in the water should not be taken lightly without
assessing the pros and cons. It has now been shown that a person¹s
swimming ability in warm water bears no relationship to that in cold
water.
...
Wherever possible, entry into water below 15°C should be avoided. Direct
entry into a life raft should be the objective.
...

So the old saying that you should never leave a boat unless it leaves
you is still the essence - and having a spare "boat".

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

In principle I agreed with you.
Your statement "Wherever possible, entry into water below 15°C should be
avoided. Direct
entry into a life raft should be the objective."

Direct entry into the life raft requires you to jump into the water first.
By the time you are in the life raft (depending on your ability and physical
condition) it could take anywhere from 2 minutes to 15 minutes and more. In
the Bay of Fundy the water temperature is always 40F (about 4C) all year.
By the time you are in the life raft you may well be subject to acute
hypothermia.
Last month during our yearly training we concluded that wearing your
survival suit before jumping into the water to get into the life raft could
safe your life.

....

wrote in message
...

"Marc Heusser" d wrote
in message ...
In article ,
Marc Heusser d
wrote:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/MarineSafety/TP/TP13822/menu.htm

From the conclusions:

...
Even a lifejacket, if not worn properly or without a spray hood, does
not guarantee the victim protection from drowning.
...
Even with rescue resources on scene when the people went into the water,
the shock of the cold water and period of time these people were in the
water proved significant in this casualty.
...
From all the combined research on cold water accidents and scientific
research, it has become clear that sudden immersion in cold water, i.e.
below 15°C is very dangerous, it should be avoided if at all possible.
Furthermore, a conscious decision to swim (and rescue oneself) or stay
floating still in the water should not be taken lightly without
assessing the pros and cons. It has now been shown that a person¹s
swimming ability in warm water bears no relationship to that in cold
water.
...
Wherever possible, entry into water below 15°C should be avoided. Direct
entry into a life raft should be the objective.
...

So the old saying that you should never leave a boat unless it leaves
you is still the essence - and having a spare "boat".

HTH

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com

In principle I agreed with you.
Your statement "Wherever possible, entry into water below 15°C should be
avoided. Direct
entry into a life raft should be the objective."

Direct entry into the life raft requires you to jump into the water first.
By the time you are in the life raft (depending on your ability and
physical condition) it could take anywhere from 2 minutes to 15 minutes
and more. In the Bay of Fundy the water temperature is always 40F (about
4C) all year.
By the time you are in the life raft you may well be subject to acute
hypothermia.
Last month during our yearly training we concluded that wearing your
survival suit before jumping into the water to get into the life raft
could safe your life.


I would like to add another comment concerning life raft.
The probability of the life raft to open as it touches the water is very
good.
However, how many sailboat owners have their life raft inspected every year
and carry out the regular maintenance?
Having a survival suit is a good thing. But you have to be able to get into
the suit quickly. This requires practice.
We have learned that the best way to put your survival suit on is to do it
while sitting on the floor. Better to do it ahead of time.

In article ,
wrote:

In principle I agreed with you.
Your statement "Wherever possible, entry into water below 15°C should be
avoided. Direct
entry into a life raft should be the objective."

Actually it was the statement from the mentioned report, not mine.

Direct entry into the life raft requires you to jump into the water first.
By the time you are in the life raft (depending on your ability and physical
condition) it could take anywhere from 2 minutes to 15 minutes and more. In
the Bay of Fundy the water temperature is always 40F (about 4C) all year.
By the time you are in the life raft you may well be subject to acute
hypothermia.

Worse, much worse, if you read the report:
You could die of a heart attack immediately entering the water, and you
could loose all your force within minutes to grab a rope etc.

As the report is based on analysis of real events I tend to take it
seriously (also my medical training suggests that it is sound advice).

The report strongly recommends agains entering the water at all, if
anyhow possible. Of course a survival (dry) suit helps.

I do hope never to be in that (real) situation ;-)

And training entering 4C water without survival suits is most likely
plain dangerous.

Marc

--
remove bye and from mercial to get valid e-mail
http://www.heusser.com